Mystery US #142(?) & Peru #j3 Printed & Grilled By National

If you like a mystery, you may like this. I had heard calls of "Fake grill" on my and recently on another poster's 24 cent Gen. Winfield Scott stamp. I took it like a man and left it at that, adding it to my collection of fakes and forgeries. Later, I read that National printed and grilled stamps for Peru. When I saw my first Peru postage due with a National grill, I decided to pursue this "Fake grill" call a bit further. Actually, the grill on my stamp cannot be an H grill, so I do not even hint that my stamp is a #142. But is it remotely possibly that it might be a genuine National grill? Maybe not, but I am never the less, quite intrigued about it.

To avoid confusion Winfield Scott and Scott who produces the catalog are 2 different men with the same last name.

Not long ago the other SCF member put up a post concerning a USA 24c potential Scott #142. I cannot find the post now but when I saw it, I thought: "That grill looks similar to the one on my 24c Winfield Scott".

I now have in my hot little hands a Peru J3 that SCF member Wadmalatz graciously gave me. US Scott #134 to 144 and Peru #J2 to J5 were all printed and grilled by National. The grill on the Peru postage dues is sometimes called a Z grill but is not really the same as a USA Z grill. The US Z grill is 10x14mm, my Peru grill measures 9x14mm and appears to have 12x16 or 17 points.

My 24c below has a grill that pretty much matches the dimensions and points of the Peru grill. Maybe exactly but I can't be sure with my limited equipment. The photos are from an earlier scan, so I have to dig out my stamp to verify its dimensions. That is currently the only unverified part of this post.


Back side of my 24c.


Now here are the front and back of Peru J3





For comparison of H grill here is my 141 below which does appear to have a genuine H grill. A #142 grill would also look like this.

Size is not the issue here, it's the points.

Thanks stallzer for your input. I hope to hear more comments, but for now, please allow me to differ here. Size is the issue if the Winfield Scott stamp were to have a grill equal to the grill on the Peru grilled stamps. According to the Grill Chart on www.1847usa.com an F grill, for example, measures 9x13mm. The 9mm side can have 11 or 12 points. As another example, the H grill's 10mm side can have 11 to 13 points. I don't know how this works out but It seems pretty clear to me from the 1847usa site that a given size can vary in the number of points it has.

The Grill Chart article that follows the actual Grill Chart, says the Peru grill is 9 x 14mm. None of the US grilled issues have a 9 x 14mm grill. The F grill is the closest in size at 9 x13mm with 11-12 x 15-17 points. My Peru is 9x14mm and has 12x16(or17)points which are the same number as an F grill. If size were not the issue, the Peru grill could be classified as an F grill by counting only points. But since it is 14mm rather than 13mm vertically, it is not classified as an F grill.

Deleted all as I'm an idiot. Sorry Quig, wrong item I am referring to. There was another thread of the same Stamp (142) that another collector posted here and sent it to Wm. Weiss for certification which Mr. Weiss could not do. I was thinking this was the same, my bad.

First, a little background on the National Bank Note grills on the Peru stamps. The National Bank Note Co. was contracted by the Peru Postal Administration for stamp production. The regular issues of 1874-1884 were produced with grills. Three types of grills were used; a 10X12mm (similar to the H grill), a 9X14mm grill and a 11X15½mm grill.

National used two grilling devices and the embossing rolls were releaved around each grill pattern which accounts for the variance in both dimension size and number of points (and the creation of half points).

The 1870-1873 issues were first produced with the H grill which was a male, points down, vertical ridge grill that measured 10 X 12mm with 11-13 X 14-16 points. This grill was used on all valued from 1¢ to 90¢ (Scott 134-144).

At some point in 1870 it is believed that one of the grilling devices was modified to the I grill which was a male, points down, vertical ridge grill that measured 8½ X 10mm with 10-11 X 10-13 points.

As for your stamp validating a grill is like validating color, it really can't be done easily or accurately from a scan. But a couple of observations.
The back of the stamp shows a very incomplete and poorly defined grill which is very common on the banknotes, but I have never seen an example of a H or I grill on a banknote where the grill is more well defined on the face than on the back.
There is an expert mark on the back that could help with this stamp, could you show a better detail of this mark?

The second banknote, 141, is a pretty typical example but if you view it from the face I believe that you will see the the grill is far less defined from that side.

I used to have a little info on the Peru grills from Ken Lawrence if I can find it I will sent it your way.

stalzar, My stamp was said to be fake several years ago primarily because it had incorrect dimensions to be an H grill. I agreed and knew nothing about National grills on Peru J2-5. As I said in the original post, I need to dig out my Winfield Scott and measure the grill dimensions again.

Russ, That is some great information. I did not know that there were 3 different grills on the Peru stamps. I would appreciate the the info from Ken Lawrence if you do find it.

I have a 3 day trip tomorrow. So it will be about 4 days before I will be able to upload a better scan, front and back, of Winfield for both of you to see. So, please be patient in waiting for better scans.

Sorry guys to say I have not located the winfield Scott stamp as yet. I will find it sooner or later but I don't want to put a time period on it. I am very busy for the next two weeks and will most likely not come across it until after that time.
Marty

A few weeks later and I located the stamp.

Detail of expert mark


The next scan shows a big difference in the grill appearance. Both stamps have incomplete or poorly defined grills.
The number of points up on both look to be 12x17. Millimeter size looks to be 10x14mm on both, although the Peru seems a minuscule taller when the image is amplified and Scott is a minuscule wider. My biggest doubts to genuineness are 1) the points on the 24c Scott look to be somewhat flat. Points that actually are "pointy", are very obvious on the Peru stamp. And 2) the Winfield Scott stamp's grill is not parallel with the perforations. Is it fake? Probably, but I am still intrigued that it has the grill dimensions and number of points that are on the some of Peru Postage Dues rather than a Scott #142. One would think that a forgerer would choose the same number of points and dimensions the stamp being faked. I think it worth adding that during the time I have owned the Scott stamp I once found it on the floor, so I may have damaged it but minimally because before and after scans do not show any major change.

Grill comparison with J2