Scott 64 Help

I am thinking this is Scott 64 and probably the rose pink color. Any opinions? Not in the best shape either.

It is on cover and is cancelled 1864 in Gettysburg. Difficult to tell if there are grills. Thanks

Doug

Definately not #64....
#65 for sure...Guaranteed.

Thanks Kevin. What is it that gives it away as 65? Color?

I seen it today at an estate sale and they are estimating it at $100-400. That's why I put it out here for opinion.

Not worth 100 bucks on stamp alone. Maybe if the cover is addressed to an important or prominent person or if it has a rare cancel maybe. The shade is a nice one though almost a claret!

YES...a #64 is PINK.
That item is no where near the pink color....
save the money.

I agree. No chance it is a #64 or even a #64b. Here is a certified #64 (pink):

A Pink is the color of bubble gum. A Pigeon Blood Pink is the color of bubble gum with a noticeable blue hue.

Not having a certified copy myself it is a very difficult shade to determine. I am sure a couple of mine fall into at the least a rose pink . If I remeber correctly from earlier post that the 64's were only issued early on (1861 I believe)so an 1864 postmark helps eliminate the option.
Bill is there a way to show the bluish hue emitted by the pidgeon blood from a scan?. Those I've talked to before have only said when you have it you'll see it.
The image is one of mine but it may just be a very light printing .

If anything that's a Rose Pink based on what my monitor shows.

Pigeon Bloods are, first of all, rather rare stamps. Second, I have seen images of certified ones that look nothing like the real thing, and that's due to monitor color variations and differences in saturation, brightness, etc of scans. I remember seeing one on Siegel's website and when I saw it in person it looked totally different, when I saw the same image on a different computer it too looked totally different.

From this computer the one that Classic Coins posted looks, to me, like a true Pink. Pigeon bloods have a bluish haze to them if that makes any sense, you'd really need to see one in person that's a certified copy.

Even then I've seen multiple Pigeon Blood Pinks that are all certified by the PF and the shades are all slightly different. Remember, these are 153 year old stamps and environmental effects do have an affect on the ink. Heck, I have numerous different "Steel Blue" 24c shades, and all are real Steel Blues.

I have this one, but it is in pretty rough shape, so I have never sent it in for a cert.

It's an "interesting" shade though, huh?





- Al

PS: Jeeze, Bill, I just realized that you are you! So you've seen this before on another board... (It's not Déjà vu all over again!)

Pigeon bloods do have a violet or purplish tinge, I was shown one by one of the top dealers in the country a couple of years ago. I have doubts that most scans will be good enough to really show what they truly look like.

I'm going to jump in here-- Bill, you had mentioned the "bluish haze", and I was wondering if you've ever seen Ashbrook's reference pigeon bloods, or if the reference copies have ever been found? From what I've read and found, at least until around 2000, his description of pigeon blood was still up in the air, and since the reference copies weren't available, it was hard to know what he meant by pigeon blood (since he and Elliot Perry were the two who coined the term "pigeon blood pink" for this stamp).

Also Bill, I'm asking this not to question you in any way on this-- I have so much respect for your expertise, I'd never do that, but I'd really like to pick your brain here a little bit more.... :)

Many good articles in the past on this subject in The Chronicle. The most recent, about a year or so ago, which included colors of all of the pinks, Mike McClung explained that pigeon blood comes from the pigeon blood ruby, which is the most valuable and desired ruby. Definitely a difference between the lavender pinks and carmine pinks and the pigeon blood that was pictured in The Chronicle.

Another article he wrote in The Chronicle several years back now "Pigeon Blood Pink or Passenger Pigeon" again he mentions that he has seen many carmine pink and lavender pink stamps which are certified as pigeon blood. This article is a really good one, from February of 1995.

McClung lists some of the ideas of why so many differences in the shades of certified pigeon blood:

• Some of the stamps have changed over the years
• Some reference copies have changed over the years
• Some expertizing experts have inadequate reference material
• Our standards aren't as high as they used to be
• Different people see color differently

Really good article. My guess is that some of the blue copies of pigeon blood pink could also be what McClung classified as lavender pink in his study of the shades of the 3c 1861. Regardless, the name pigeon blood today, has been listed on certs for a lot of different shades, and it would be really cool someday to pin it down......hope this is helpful, Ray

PS-- I always recommend that anyone who is interested in US Classics join USPCS, and you'll receive a copy of The Chronicle four times a year, and have access to all back copies online....great resource for all of the US classics.

From what I could see on the first copy in this topic, it looked really red on my screen....rose red or carmine rose possibly? Jeff- it doesn't look like a claret to me-- and a good, deep claret from 1863 is rarer than a pink......check out this listing of Jack Daley's on ebay for a great claret (ID# 261366411737)...

I used to be a semi serious gemstone collector and the pidgeon blood term based on pure untreated burma rubbies has confused me in relation to these stamps. I will say that the term is far overused in gems as well ranging from bright pinks to crimson red but the pinks are lesser value in the gem world. A true pidgeon blood ruby with great clarity will sell for more than equal size diamonds so I can see how the term transfered to a rare shade in the stamp but in both worlds it is probably an over used far from exact term.
Does Jack daly have or maybe can do a good comparison scan with maybe a pidgeon a bright pink and a few common rose shades to offset the whole thing? I know scans just can't do what needs to be done on this but its great to view all we can.

nitrolures, www.3cent1861.com is Jack Daley's web site with various shades of the 3-cent Washington of 1861-68. He has an example of the pidgeon blood as well as other shades for the issue posted on the site. Examples I've seen, few I'd add, have a bluish hue hint in the pink color. I think good lavender pink #64s can be confused with pidgeon blood pink because of the closeness of the blue/lavender hues.

The pidgeon on Jacks site really stands out but its difficult to see (sense) that lavender bluish hue. I've followed his listings on and off for awhile now but I think my problem is I always look for diamonds in the rough. When mixed amongst a lot even with a few different 65's it seems the pinkish shades will jump out on 1 or 2. Problem is they are usually just one of the other many shades of 65. Until I get 1 certified or break down and shell out the bucks I'll keep looking and have a killer lot of 65 shades in the process.

Whoa... you guys are getting me confused with Bill Weiss; that's not me although I have seen him post here before. FWIW, my last name is Weismann, so it's close!

Anyhow, Ray, one thing that I'd like to point out is that on occasion I've seen stamps that have been carefully stored for 40-50+ years and the catalog descriptions will mention this and the stamp generally has vivid color. I think that an awful lot of what people like Ashbrook, Neinken, Brookman, Perry, etc saw with their eyes 60-80 years ago simply looks different today.

I am really not sure myself on reference copies, I grew up learning about stamps from my father who had a fantastic 10c 1861 cover collection, he exhibited at Ameripex in 86 amongst others. So my experience and expertise really lies with foreign mails of 1861 issue stamps and I collect mainly 24c covers (although I'm a sucker for scarce rates franked by 1861 issues).

I do remember that my father had a really nice Pigeon Blood (He had a page of every 1861 and all shades except the blackish violet 24c) and I do remember seeing the shades quite vividly. I do remember my dad being friends with some amazing people and I got to learn an awful lot at a young age, that's where I get the bug from.

Basically, as I recall.. the true pinks looked just like bubble gum, and the pigeon blood (both had PF certs) was bubble gum with a bluish cast to it. I wouldn't call it purple, it's absolutely a bluish tinge. It's something that has stuck with me; I can spot a Pigeon Blood as well as a true Pink quite easily.

My suggestion is the next time you can attend a major stamp show to look at either certified copies or ones from a highly reputable dealer (If guys like Jim Lee or Stanley Piller say it's so then it is) and you will see what I am explaining... again, not to beat a dead horse but these computer monitors can really skew things and you really need to see them in person; once you do you'll "get it".