U90 Cut Square With Break In Frame And Horizontal Laid Paper

I think this is die 3. Doe's the break in the frame (UR oval) and horizontal laid paper make this stamp anything special? The center of O in ONE also appears triangular. There is also a faint line arround the inside of outer edge of square. Doe's anyone know the Scott # ?

The horizontal laid paper would be a useful attribute if it were an entire envelope. As a cut square, I would doubt there is much demand.

The break in the outer frame line is not a die variety, but rather an example of a filled die (ink and/or foreign material and ink creating a surface for ink to be applied during the printing process. A die variety (which would represent a permanent change to the die) would appear as a new white space in the green area.

Scott U400b, if Die 3.

Thanks again TG

I have this cut square on the bay and was emailed this comment. Is this correct?

"Horizontally laid is in fact the unusual because diagonally laid was the norm. Thorp does not list horizontally laid at all - it just says laid - but the UPSS 20th century catalog does list horizontally laid - HL - for several watermarks. They are UPSS 1478a on watermarks 15 and 15a, and 1882 on those same 2 watermarks. Of course, they were on different size and knife envelopes, unknown with a cut square.

Normally, horizontally laid would indicate a newspaper wrapper when the paper is manila. White, horizontally laid paper is a mentionable variety probably resulting from economical use of the paper left over after cutting the diagonally laid items. Paper was the most expensive portion of printing costs for many, many years.

I am on the catalog editorial committee for the UPSS catalog. Cut squares are mentioned mostly when an item is only known as a cut square. Cut squares are left for the Scott catalog so the remark "unknown with a cut square" makes no sense except that Scott catalog frequently neglects to mention anything about paper other than color and watermark.

jobi01,thanks for the info. Is this a rare valuable item?

"Is this a rare valuable item?"

There isn't enough information available from the scan to determine whether the cut square came from an envelope or a wrapper. It is highly probable that it came from a wrapper because of the HL attribute, but not definitively.

It is a rather poor strike, making the die determination iffy. Do you have a measurement for the "D" and the "S"'s?

When you have uncertainties such as these, you are required to take the lowest possible catalog value. Even then, a collector would want to know the catalog number, I would think.

IMO, this would make a good wrapper Die 3 filler item until the collector acquired an example that is more clearly identifiable.

TG,which points of the D and S do you measure from?

Imagine two vertical lines, one on each side of the letter ("D" or "S") and just touching the letter. Measure the distance between the two lines.

TG the letters D and S appear to be 3mm wide. What does that mean?

It means you need a better measuring device :-)

The catalogs mention 2.25mm and 2mm for the "D" on dies 1 & 2. Nothing for dies 3 & 4.
For the "S"'s, they say dies 1 & 2 are "narrow", die 3 "broad", and nothing for die 4.

Helpful, no?
Whenever I get a chance, I push for better descriptions of dies in the catalogs. So far, no response.

I measure the "S"'s in die 3 at 2mm for an example I have scanned.
Everything ("D"'s and "S"'s) is in the 2mm to 2.25mm range according to my measurements.

TG I measure this one at 2.25 mm for the D and S.

There appears to be a line just in from the cut edges. All four sides. Can you tell us what that is looking at it with a glass?

Still think it is a Die 3.

Hey TG,I did mention the line on my first post as I did notice it and was wondering about it. Here is a close up of the line. It runs parallel around the inside edge of the square. What is it?

Another pic.

"I did mention the line on my first post"

Yo, right you are. That factoid never got cemented in place in those old gray cells.

The line doesn't seem to be ink or pencil, but more of a crease in the paper.

Hold the cut square up towards a good light at a very acute angle and observe the line from several different approaches. That might help determine what it could be.

I'm having a really hard time speculating as to its cause. Seems certain that it is related to the cutting of the cut square. There is not anything in the wrapper/envelope process that would do it.

I wonder if the person who originally made the cut square had a square object (a small box maybe) that he pressed down on the wrapper and then cut around the edges. Would be a way to get all your cut squares the same size. Though he got a little wobbly on the left side.