Lets Start Making Our Own Certs.....he Is???

By all means, please do.

I agree with revenuecollector.....

Just because a dealer guarantees his item does not mean he can issue a certificate of authenticity.

EX....Siegels, top auction firm around, guarantees everything they sell...but every sale there is always a few lots with non-descript items lotted together (from previous sales). If they offered certs....how many items would NOT be sent to be certed?
It would be quoted as "Siegels, SALE #, LOT #"

Believe me, you would not want Siegel to certify everything they sell, they are not perfect either. They are very good, but they make their share of mistakes.

I do know a few RECOGNIZED experts that will provide a certificate on their selling stock. This comes along with a FULL lifetime refund guarantee including the certificate. They have also stated that they will refund the cost of recertification (APS, BPP, etc.) if the other cert. comes back as "fake" or "no opinion." With that as a guarantee I see less of a problem or conflict of interest. As they are up front about it and putting their reputation on the line as well.

In my opinion a "guarantee certificate" or "warranty certificate" is different from expertization.

Someone should direct David Hall to this thread too. He only is President of the biggest coin grading company on the planet. Which also grades the coins he sells.

I wrote, he responded- hopefully he will make it over here to participate.
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I do not know how to add to the thread. So I am responding to you personally. Hopefully you can tell me how to do it, or you can do it for us.("MAYBE SOMEONE CAN TELL HIM HOW TO ADD TO THIS THREAD")

The reason we make certificates is to gain confidence in the general public that what we are selling is as stated. We have been dealing with U.S. Stamps for over 40 years and we are members in good standing with APD, ASDA, Florida Stamp Dealer Association. Should any recognizable authority prove any of our certified stamps (even not certified) to not be genuine we would immediately refund any monies as long as we are in business. As you can see from our feedback we have 100% satisfaction, not ONE negative entry.

It's impossible to please everyone and anyone can find fault with anything.

Let us know if there is anything else we can do for you. Hopefully this puts your mind at ease (as well as everyone else's) We also have one of the only retail stamp shops left, which we welcome anyone to visit during our store hours.

Respectfully,

Mitch Kopkin
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some links:
https://local.yahoo.com/info-143329...t-lauderdale

http://www.tropicalstamps.com/

http://stampauctionnetwork.com/dir/aucdir1b.cfm (tip-9th dealer from bottom of list)

I should have been more specific. I ame talking about Expertization Certificates, 2 are BPP and a number are AIEP.

I understand the practice exists; I'm just not a fan of it. Perhaps it's more accepted with non-U.S. material and collectors.

If someone were to offer a U.S. revenue that had a "self-expertized" certificate, I would treat it as non-expertized or at least treat it with a healthy amount of skepticism, and depending on the piece would request extension to one of the credible and/or market-acceptable expertization companies.

Dealers can certainly do whatever they want. A self-expertized cert does not add any value in my mind, which is part of what they are hoping for when self-expertizing. I will treat it as an unexpertized item until it gets a "real cert".

I strongly doubt that any item with a cert such as the one shown in the orignal post would be listed as expertized by any of the major auction firms.

I guess I simply don't trust enough that when push comes to shove, that dealers won't "fudge" when it comes to issuing certs on their own material... I'm cynical.

Others are free to disagree and accept these sorts of certs at face value. I won't.

I completely concur with Dan, the value of a cert is that a third party has laid eyes upon it and is willing to form a documented opinion. In my mind any self cert is little more than an ill conceived attempt at marketing fluff.

But it does open even more interesting questions; like why is there not better oversight of certifying bodies? Obviously everyone makes a mistake every now and again but how does a consumer determine the actual track record of the various certification services? And should there not also be a standard format for a cert, requiring certain things (i.e. the full name of the person who did the actual inspection of the item)?
Don

Dan,
If Richard or Eric were to have an item in their stock self certified I would accept it as I would their word. Like you, I have known both waaaayyyy to many years not to trust them. I am quite sure their reputations and businesses are more important to them than a few dollars.
There is also another issue. For example: You buy an Italian States stamp from Sergio Sismondo and send it for a Cert. Chances are it will be sent to Him as "THE Expert" in the area. (I know of only 1 other in that area that MIGHT be as knowlegeable as him.) Would that mean that Certificate is suspect?
Further more once the stamp is sold again the 2nd owner has no knowlege as to who had it certified. With the exception of those certs.that list the submiter. The final point I would make is if an "expert" wanted to they could have someone else submit it under their name. Yes, you would need a 2nd party in colusion but I'm sure that wouldn't be that hard to find. Personally, I would rather the dealer/expert be "up front" then I have the choice to make an informed decision based on my trust and comfort level.
This goes for RECOGNIZED EXPERTS ONLY!
Unknown or self proclaimed "experts", their certificates are no better than toilet paper to me.

When the seller is a known and trusted party to you, then that makes it a whole new ball game. I don't need a cert from Eric or Richard to know that they will stand behind the material if it ever receives a formal adverse opinion.

Of course, this bleeds into a different question and discussion: would you be better off if recognized expert dealers *did* offer formal certs for their own material? For example, what happens if, heaven forbid, Eric or Richard gets hit by the proverbial bus tomorrow, and thus their confirmation as to the material in question cannot be obtained? If you don't have original receipts along with photos or something else proving THAT specific stamp or item originated with them, your claim as to them being the source, and thus a greater claim to authenticity, cannot be proven. By definition, stamps coming from them have greater provenance (for lack of a better word), but if you have 17 examples of stamp X, how do you prove which one was the one they provided, without some sort of photo evidence?

No, my biggest objection is with homemade certs from "Bob's Discount Expertization Service, Refrigeration Repair, and Used Car Emporium" like the one in the OP. Those have no value at all in my opinion, and potentially give false security to buyers. Their claim to being longstanding members of the APS and ASDA, while through inference implies ethical behavior, does *not* prove that they have any ability to expertize what they claim to be expertizing.

"Oversight" is rarely worth it: almost all "oversight" --aka "regulation"-- is flawed in one respect or another. The best "oversight" is the marketplace itself. If somebody's certificate proves to not be worth the paper it is printed on, word will get around, and buyers will take notice (caveat emptor). Those who are not paying attention have only themselves to blame. The rest do not need nannies to insure that a certificate is worth something. The informed soon learn who they can trust, and who is not to be trusted. Information, not oversight, is all that is needed.

Posted as I wrote the above:


They give false security only to the uninformed. Whose fault is that--that they are uninformed? Seems to me that anybody shelling out $$$ without being as informed as possible doesn't need sympathy. Perhaps they need a bad experience or two to learn from.

I would purchase a stamp with a cert from a "recognized" expert or someone I trusted (which begs the question, recognized by whom). Other factors increase trust, including affiliations (e.g., APS), guarantees, feedback, reputation, etc.

At least for me, based on the above criteria, I don't see a problem with someone issuing their own certification. Maybe they have a body of customers and trusted colleagues that value the cert. Maybe they don't. No one is forcing the buyer to accept that this certification has any value. It may border on deceitful, but not in this case. It is quite clear that the expertizer is also the seller and there was no effort to conceal this in the listing. The seller also belongs to trusted organizations and provides a guarantee. That's enough for me. I would certainly consider buying from this seller.

Given their is no organization (that I know of) that grants authority to experts, anyone can claim to be an expert and that's legitimate in my view (unfortunate maybe, but still legitimate).

The AIEP and BPP do grant authority/approval to experts.
All AIEP experts issue their own Certificates as do the BPP. They both have certain standards that MUST be met in order to be recognized as one of their experts. Their approval as an expert is NOT an easy task. The experts in both groups are quasi independant. AIEP Experts use AIEP Certificates with the Experts name added and the BPP Experts have their own. But, they MUST follow a standard approved format.