Pencil Marks On Classic Mints

I did I thorough search of the forums and just can't find the answer I am looking for. Opinions are welcome of course but am hoping some of the experts might chime in with a more definitive answer.

Do pencil marks degrade the value of a "classic" mint, OG, H/NH stamp?

I have bought some classic stamps through internet auctions for what I felt was a fair price and even though there was not a picture of the back of the stamp, when it arrived (it was never noted in the description) it had a pencil notation. I could have easily returned it I imagine but it filled a want. I can only imagine that a certificate stamp would have that in the description.

Can pencil marks be removed from mint, OG stamps?

Thanks…Doug

I do not think it is safe in any way to remove pencil markings from mint US stamps. I think any auction listing for a mint classic stamp should note whether there is a pencil marking on the reverse. I some cases the pencil marking (I am guessing here) could aid in validating the authenticity of a stamp). I would never mark any stamps with pencil on the back, whether mint, used classic or modern (with one exception).

For sure, the seller should have mentionned this. I would not mess with the stamp to try to remove the pencil marking. In my opinion, it is a marking on the gum and of course, this will reduce the value a bit. Pristine is always the best

IMO, yes, especially on MNH Classics, I would say the value is reduced because it is no longer in MINT condition, as it was originally issued. It is the buyer who will determine how much less they are willing to pay.

Sometimes a fair price isn't as fair as we'd like. If I were to make a purchase and a Seller neglected to mention the pencil notation on the back, I'd have to decide if I felt the price was worth what I paid to determine if I would keep it. Some might even go so far as to leave negative or neutral feedback making a comment "not as described-Pencil # on back". Most often buyers do nothing, and Sellers continue that practice because they get away with it. I would consider this factor to determine if I would do business with that seller again.

It's a matter of theory: Make a solid sale and a solid customer, or make a bad sale and lose a customer. It's a no brainer to me...but not to all sellers.

As a collector and Seller, I make very clear, any condition I see and price my start accordingly. Unlike some Sellers I will not mention who have 50k sales and list all items at a penny and don't list with much accuracy, they still have 50K sales...so it seems many buyers don't care and continue doing business. I'd rather list with honest accuracy and have fewer sales but solid happy buyers.

Quite often pencil writing on the gum of mint stamps can be successfully removed with a soft eraser, but not if the pressure of the writing has left an impresson in the paper, but it's worth a try. Indeed, pencil writing on mint stamps devalues the stamp - unless it is a signature of a well-known and respected expert. In United States stamps, there are a number of expert's signatures that would be VERY acceptable on a mint stamp, including Ashbrook, Brookman, Perry, Costales, Sloane, etc. But if unknown, not acceptable and also devalues the stamp. How much does pencil writing devalue it? Depends on the severity of the damage it's done to the gum. Anywhere from 10-15% to 50% or more.

I do not think that trying to remove a pencil mark on a mint stamp is a good idea; best to leave it.

One possible lesson earned here is to never buy a higher dollar stamp from a listing with a front image only. (A quality seller will always show both sides of a stamp.) There a few valid reasons to not take the time to at least offer a buyer an image of both sides of better quality material. At the very least, you should ask the seller for an image before buying.

If the stamp in question is nickel and dime material, then obviously many sellers are not going to invest the extra time in scanning images. For my own buying habits, I set a dollar limit on an listing on which I will not even consider it unless there are decent resolution images of both sides of a stamp.
Don

Another excellent thread that raises some interesting issues. I would ask the other participants, what is the price level where you insist on seeing a clear scan/photo of both the front and back?

It is a challenge for sellers of lower priced material to make photos of low dollar priced items. So another related question.... What price do collectors insist on having an actual photo of the stamp rather than a "stock" image?

Bob

In my mind pencil annotations reduce the value of any stamp, and especially those that are MNH. Some of my collections are restricted to MNH and I will turn down any stamp with writing on the gum regardless of how badly a space needs to be filled.

I must disagree with my friend Don. I have successfully erased pencil writing on LOTS of mint stamps in my career. If the pencil wasn't pushed hard enough to impress into the paper/gum, it's usually erasable. On the other hand, it must be done carefully, and the stamp must be firmly anchored to insure it doesn't move around when the pressure of the erasing takes place. I usually anchor it by laying an approval card over half of the stamp, then push down on the card hard, then erase, then do the other half (if necessary). Of course, the smaller area that needs to be erased, the better. And the erasing must be gentle.

But Don's trepedation is valid if the erasing is attempted when the pencil pushed too hard and penetrated the paper or if the person doing the erasing doesn't adequately anchor the stamp. Then, of course, the stamp could easily be ruined/destroyed by tearing.

you have to be careful to erase only in one direction (away from the achor point) as going in the other direction can easily result in creasing the stamp in question

I have mentioned in a thread some time back that there is a simple, plate-like device called an "erasing shield" that is designed with slits and holes meant to be placed over and around the area to be erased.
Here's an example: http://www.dickblick.com/categories...singshields/ (copy and paste if redirected).

It does the same thing that Bill is doing with an approval card, but it applies the force on both sides of the erasure spot simultaneously. With erasing, even light erasing, one little slip and you can introduce creases or even tears to the stamp. Using an erasing shield of some kind and always exerting the force AWAY from TOWARD edges, holes, or roughness (as eyeonwall said) will help minimize whatever hazard erasure presents.

However, I think we can agree that once original gum has been written on it is no longer pristine, it is "disturbed" though the usual description will refer to the writing. Erasing the marks will not restore the pristine condition, so after erasing the stamp is og with slightly disturbed gum even if it looks nh. I think some sellers will call it lh even if the stamp has never borne a hinge. An erasure on shiny gum usually will appear as a bit of dullness, but on matte finish gum it may be all but impossible to spot. Let your conscience be your guide on that one.


[edit: Boy did I get turned around. Glad I caught this. Let me correct/clarify that comment on direction since it could mess up a stamp. Eyeonwall said it better than I. You should erase away from the point where you are holding it down, and erase toward the open side.

Erase into a hole, so you do not accidentally catch it on an edge and make it bigger. When near an edge, erase toward the open side, away from the center of the stamp. Tiny strokes. Light touch.]

Sorry for the confusion. Too much holiday I think.

Happy New Year to you all! ]

I agree with Essayk and his method is better/safer than mine. But I do not agree that any stamp that's had pencil erased from it's gum is no longer "pristine". I have erased many mint/OG stamps where the pencil has not penetrated the surface of the paper and can be erased well enough so that there is absolutely no trace of the pencil (at lest to the naked eye - I suppose if one wanted to put it under a microscope there might be graphite fragments showing(?).

I think that most collectors would, all other things being equal, consider a stamp accurately described as "mint, OG, pencil mark on back" (whether H or NH) to be somehow less desirable than one with no pencil mark. However, if the pencil mark can be successfully erased without affecting the gum so that there is no visible trace of it, then I say it is just as desirable as a stamp that never had such a mark to begin with.

Bill is reminding me of something. My questions below are not just for him. Dudley's comment in light of that from docgfd stimulated the following reflection. Don't take it too seriously, but do consider it.

Things that make a stamp desirable or not are very subjective, and on that I say, "To each his/her own." But in the attempt to honor that diversity, I have to ask, if I know that I removed some pencil writing from the back of a stamp so well that the erasure cannot be seen, is it okay for me to offer it for sale and say nothing about that fact?

Don't try to cop out with caveat emptor - be your brother's keeper for this one. Does erasing it so cleanly that it is not noticeable with the naked eye the same as saying it never happened?

If so, then what do you think about creases and thins only noticeable in fluid? Mums the word?

What do we stand for?

Some of this has to do with the skills of the hobbyists and value of the 'classic stamp'. For someone of my experience, and big fat fingers and little luck, I would never try to erase a pencil mark. But then again having a small pencil mark on the back of a classic mint stamp would not be that bothersome to me.

Essayk's follow-up questions seem to be probing around the issue of stamp alterations; if a hobbyist is willing to erase a pencil mark then why stop there? What about then touching up the gum after the erasure?

It is unclear to me if 'disclosure' is related to the act of stamp alteration. I guess there may be some moral/ethical connection but I am not so sure that one always follows anther. Ideally all of us would document everything that we do to our stamps but in reality few of us do. (Heck, I'm happy when folks put in the work to just properly identify their stamps never mind actual record the stuff they do to them!)

But when it comes to listing a classic stamp for sale the issue clarifies for me. Changing the fit, form or function of a stamp in any way should always be noted if known. This includes even if you have soaked it off paper or removed a hinge. Why? For classic stamps the 'story' or history of the stamp becomes part of the stamp itself. (This is much like a old car or other antique.) Sometimes this history provides key bits of information that can impact the future. It is like digging for fossils but neglecting to document the dig and just absconding with the specimen for profit.
Don

Thanks all for the replies.

Looks like that (although not a scientific poll) most (note I don't call out "experts") seem to agree that pencil marks on the gum side of a Mint stamp do indeed devalue the value of a classic stamp. All noted within my database. Got that answer.

Can pencil marks be removed?.... seems to be one of choice to the philatelist.

In answer to the removal question….I would love to have no marks but they are there. For me (and all of the suggestions of how to remove) I will leave them as they are (removing sounds to complicate and may destroy/hurt).

Good luck to the grandkids and hope they appreciate that Grandpa did the best he could to accumulate the collection he could. He certainly had a good time doing it.

Doug