Are These Perforations Possible?

essayk
Yes, YOU can look at the smaller reverse side image of the stamp and make an informed buying decision. Not everyone else can, new hobbyists starting out are not as experienced. You can argue all day long that it the buyer responsibility to know this stuff but we are not talking about buying a house or car (where a third party might be called in to offer additional info). The hobbyist gets burned, doesn't usually figure it out many months after the sale, and then becomes discouraged with the hobby. As Artful points out, they are doing this to a huge number of hobbyists, some fit this profile.

In my opinion this damages the hobby; seems a stretch to argue that it is helpful or healthy in any way. (Not that that is what you are doing.) And even if the buyer tries to do his homework, what would he find about this seller? Well, this seller has a 99.7% rating with well over 150,000 transactions. Buyer thinks, 'ok that's sounds like many others are buying from this seller, that's a good sign.' But the buyer doesn't stop there. Instead he digs deeper. He goes to Swedish Tiger's " ebay Dealer Guide" and lo and behold, NY Stamps was awarded 'Dealer of the Year' last year. There is NY Stamps listed as 'Dealer of Integrity'. Who wouldn't buy from them given this understanding?

The only real method for not being ripped off is knowledge and experience. For a new hobbyist it is difficult, at best, to gain this knowledge and experience by 'doing homework'. The more likely method is that they get burned a few times. Again, this is not good for the hobby, particularly one that needs every hobbyist it can get.
Don

I can't believe this thread has gone on for 9 pages now.


As a newcomer, I was ripped off a few times and can only say that it was very beneficial to me personally as it fueled my desire to learn more about my hobby and the items I wanted to collect.

When I buy stamps on the internet, I look at the item, price, sales terms and the seller's feedback and bid accordingly. Nothing else enters into the quotation.

"I can't believe this thread has gone on for 9 pages now."

Which is why I was reluctant to even bother posting in this thread in the first place. What a waste of time. It is the same old argument from each side every time.

The last thing I will say is that I don't get my marching orders from the code of ethics of any organization or person. I know right from wrong. It is wrong to conceal a defect, regardless of the success of that effort, in order to elevate the value of that item.

From my standpoint it goes on this long because EVERY day I get reports about NY stamp listings in Stamp Smarter. Like this one reported this morning.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/nystamps-US...em58c0656aad
Listing title reads, "nystamps US Plate Block Stamp # 374 Mint OG NH $175 P#6&A"
Yet image shows a hinge. I guess some will argue that the hinge is obvious even if others mistakenly think a hinge in the salvage means you can still call it 'NH'. Sigh. They can take the time and effort to lookup the incorrect catalog value and type 'NH' but do not have the time to simply add 'hinge in salvage'?
Don

Don, apparently you're on a campaign against this seller, but buyers have no problem deciphering its listings. As nystamps have zero unsolds, there is little reason for them to change anything. Out of 8,000+ feedback received in the past month, there were only 8 negatives (an astoundingly low number), out of which 4 were related to description.

You'll find many items on ebay which are poorly described - that's just what makes it the bazaar it is.

Jenny,
No campaign, in fact I have bought from him once and did not have any issues with that particular sale. He also responds to about half of my requests to improve his listings, and I appreciate that.

But the number of upset buyers that have contacted me certainly is influencing my perspective. Many of them refuse to write a review, post their experiences here in SCF, or make 'waves'. I think that many are embarrassed.

As has been pointed out, this is not a person who is simply selling off some extra stock. The amount of material they handle is truly astounding. They intentionally start everything at 0.01 to attract the highest amount of bidders. In other words, they put a fair amount thought into how they sell, we have had numerous communications with the owner and he clearly believes that providing the small reverse image is 'enough'. Frankly I might be able to buy into that IF the title and description didn't contradict the image (like the example given above).

I want to help philately, I want to make a difference, I want to see philately grow. If I didn't care I certainly would not be burning what little time I probably have left on Stamp Smarter and writing these posts. So no, this is not a campaign against NY Stamps. It's me trying to work with them to improve their listings and prevent unhappy transactions.

I imagine that some of this seems like overkill if you are standing on the outside looking in. But Bill and I deal with an unhappy hobbyist virtually every day, sometimes more. If you are not exposed to this, I can understand taking a more casual perspective. There are MANY great sellers on ebay; those who simply make a mistake in a listing. They respond quickly and professionally when asked about improving the listing. I do not mean to overlook or underplay this group of sellers. I try the best I can to record their professional responses in Stamp Smarter so that folks can see they are quality sellers. And of course we started the Stamp Smarter Registered Seller program for the same reasons.

I hold no ill will towards those who take the 'buyer beware' approach. I do not agree with it, but it is your right. I am more aligned with the APS and ASDA code of ethics than not. I certainly understand that education is the key to both sides of this puzzle. I am simply trying to do my part in this educational process.
Don

Don, you are going to live to 120 ...

I appreciate what you are trying to do and hope you have 100% success in seeing your vision through.

You already have Don.

Robert

Whut Wert said.

Don,

I am sympathetic to your call for buyer education. Have you considered organizing Stamp Smarter as an APS chapter? Has anyone looked into getting SS recognized by the APS so you can use the code as a member group and not just as a loose confederation of insiders and outsiders?

Will the APS sanction Stamp Smarter?

Getting that to take place might set you up to have a booth at the various shows and promote the agenda of making the internet safe for collectors.

This whole discussion has led me to the conviction that the APS code needs to be updated to better reflect the realities of buying and selling online. Of particular need right now is the matter of hammering out the role of photographs in descriptions: 1. as an alternative to descriptions in words, 2. as supplement, or 3. as hindrance or whatever they can be SHOWN to be. Your group is gathering valuable data on buyer experience with descriptions by picture, and that would be useful data for an enterprise like that. As an APS chapter you could trumpet that effort as a "cause" at shows around the country.

Something to consider?

51studebaker posted:



I had a similar experienvce many times with many different dealers and sellers. Nevertheless I preserved preservered actually! and am enjoying the hobby and pasttime immensely even now. Just think of the next 40 years!

Experience is gained through experience mainly, although it is nice to have a supportive hand now and then. As Audrey Hepburn said (paraphrased here) she had two helping hands, one on the end of each arm.

When it is fun to learn, and make use of my knowledge learned, in life as well, I want to keep coming back to the same activities.

edit: typos

essayk,
Yes, Bill and I have discussed this possibility but not acted upon it. We have the support of the ASDA but APS has been a bit more guarded.

If we applied for a chapter I guess we would then force their hand and drive them to make a decision. Rather than do that, we felt it better to build a history and demonstrate that we are not a threat or risk.

But we now have well over 1100 reviews and appear to slowly be accepted as nonthreatening. We hope our objective approach and lack of any seller flaming has allowed folks to use the data and make better informed buying decisions.

Yes, there are a handful of sellers who do not like us. No one likes to be told that the $300 item that is listed is not what it appears to be. These sellers block our contact and call us some choice names. We do not 'out' them, Stamp Smarter simply records that the seller disagrees with the review and walk away.

Our role is not to be confrontational or get into flaming each other. We strive to simply educate and provide the data for those who care to use it as a apart of their buying decision process. This is why we do not maintain a list of 'bad' sellers. It would be easy enough to write a query and build a report of 'bad' sellers but we do not.

We instead emphasize and call attention to the 'good' sellers, those in which respond to contact, seek to improve their listings, and/or offer material in a way that is healthy for the hobby.

We may interface with APS in the near future and feel them out a bit more now that we have a bit of history for them to consider. But I am not certain we will force the issue with a chapter membership request.
Don

This is a very helpful post with several important questions. Don has already provided some responses. Let me add that I have had multiple contacts with APS regarding their possible support of Stamp Smarter. Indeed, jut an endorsement would be helpful. But alas, the letter I got from APS President Steve Reinhard was quite blunt that APS is not interested in supporting any movement or venture that involves trying to straighten ebay problems out because he views ebay as a non-responsive BIG business that is only concerned with stockholder earnings, not much else.

I partly can't argue with him. I campaigned long and hard to gain the support of the entire APS Board of Directors to get APS to draw up a letter to ebay protesting their "Pictures Constitute a Complete Description" policy. (I can post a copy of the letter and/or my suggestions to the Board, which were unanimously adopted and incorporated into the letter to ebay.) The result? ebay did not even have the decency to acknowledge the letter let alone ever respond to it! So I ask you, with that in mind, how you might suggest we address that problem (the pictures policy)?

So you can see that APS involvement in this problem is unlikely. However, that being said, I was recently encouraged by a member of the BOD who agrees that something needs to be done about internet fraud, so I have my fingers crossed! Also, ASDA has been very encouraging but they too have not (yet) give us an "oficial" endorsement, though I have pretty high hopes that will eventually happen. Understandably, they have "more pressing" issues to deal with.

Also, while your suggestion to make Stamp Smarter a presence at shows is interesting, it is an expensive proposition, with the cheapest tables at regional shows running $500/1,000. (not to mention any other expenses (meals, travel, etc) that would be incurred.

Last, I agree with everything Don has written. Including that I too would like to "make a difference" with whatever time I have left. But at the same time, I agree also with Sinclair, that this is a subject that goes in circles, with those who feel strongly as Don and I do, versus those with more liberal views who either want to excuse unethical conduct or describe it as something else. And because that is true, I am going to (try) to bow out of the thread and let others go at it if they wish. If I am asked a direct questin, I will respond.

Like the famous quote by a Supreme Court Justice who once said about pornography "I know it when I see it", I feel exactly that way about unethical conduct (as Sinclair also pointed out....).

Can someone help me by highlghting the quote at the start of the post? I was sure I did it correctly......

HDNA - I just fixed it, so you should probably delete your post. Thanks very much!