Certificate Archives

Given the value of both the Siegel archives and PF Search as on line resources to research the history and quantity of certified copies of a particular stamp , it raises the question as to why this archival information has not been provided by both PSE and APEX?

I wish I had the power yielded by Yul Brynner as "Pharaoh" in the movie The Ten Commandments ...

If these do not already exist in some kind of digital format, the effort to port them to a digital format could represent a huge investment. It may be that neither the APS or PSE are up for spending that kind of time and money to digitize them. They may also be that only some of the information is in digital format; perhaps starting after XX date. In that case, you would have justify the online cost for a searchable database that can only access some of the certs ever issued.
Don

Hi All, I've never understood the reason to get a certificate in the first place. If one is to become a serious stamp collector such as myself, I go all the way and learn everything I can about which stamps interests me. I have no use for a certificate, would not waste the money to get one, in effect you are paying someone else to do your job as a serious stamp collector. Perhaps some so called stamp collectors are only stamp accumulators, letting other people do the measurements, watermarking, perfs, type of printing, etc. and etc.

Comments?

Dave

Dave,

The point of a certificate is to establish a record of opinion from a disinterested third party.

In scholarship having a respected but disinterested committee independently validate my opinion adds to my credibility. That is useful when a new find is controversial or dubious for some reason. Exhibitors know how important it is to judges that certain items be certified.

In the marketplace, when you're the buyer the only person who needs to be convinced of anything about a stamp is you. The some holds true for the other person when you are the seller. Now unless you have established some well knowb credentials as an expert, and the buyer knows that you are the seller, how will you convince a prospective buyer that what you offer is the real deal?

In the marketplace certificates are all about informing the buyer for the sake of the seller.

Why get certificates? No one knows everything, historically there have been and are some VERY sophisticated mechanics out there capable of fooling a LOT of even advanced collectors either on condition or the item itself, and as stated above, it's always good to allow a neutral party to give an expert opinion.

I'm sure that PSE considers their opinions as proprietary information, and they produce a book, the SMQ which would not be needed if people could just go to their site and see what all of any cat number looks like. It also shields them from possible mistakes in identification or grading to a large degree as well, since the public cannot see all the stamps at will. They will never post them openly, at least not for free.

It is my understanding that APS is in the process of uploading past certificates going back, I think to about 1990 at first, but then ultimately even further back.

I disagree with revcollector about why PSE won't post their past certs openly. I agree it's more about what Don says (the cost, time, etc) rather than worrying about "past mistakes" being seen. After all, we can do the same with the PFs archives, no? We can see past mistakes. And I think some of them have been discussed on this and other forums. Anyone who believes that expert services don't make mistakes (not referring to you revcollector...) is kidding themselves. So long as human beings are the examiners, mistakes and/or disagreements or contradictory opinions will occur from time to time.

The important point I made is "proprietary information, and they produce a book, the SMQ which would not be needed if people could just go to their site and see what all of any cat number looks like".
Not the mistakes, which I agree everyone makes (even me); but the PF is a non profit and PSE is a for profit and they will not release that info unless a profit can be made on it.

All

Interesting comments. Always enjoyable!

Dave

HUH?!?

This is one of the earliest things I learned, even though it has only been in the past 2 years that I have collected at a level where I saw the personal need for certificates. For 45+ years as collector, accumulator and neophyte philatelist I neither needed nor sought out certed material -- BUT -- I knew why serious big-money collectors got that piece of paper from the PF or APEX.

For many stamps, I am knowledgeable enough to add non-cert material to my collection. These are types of stamps and covers which I see a premium for certed material:

• Proof of Provenance - I own a few items with certs as ex-Dupont and ex-Skinner. Perhaps a bit of ego, but I enjoy knowing that something I have in my collection was once part of an "elite collection."
• Rare Fancy Cancels - There are lots of obvious fakes but I do have a couple good ones in my reference collection. It is comforting to know that my "Gin Barrel" carries two certs.
• Rare and/or Difficult to Identify stamps.

kollectorkurt, happy to see I'm not the only serious stamp collector who maintains a reference collection. Found a reference collection a great teaching aid when I encounter a new stamp accumulator!

I see you have collected 45+ years, I myself have 60+ years.

Great response!

Cheers

Dave

I am fast approaching 60 years of collecting; a reference collection is always a useful thing to have.

Revcollector, my years have either 365 or 366 days to each one. Do your years have a lesser number of days? If so, then you should out pace me in no time!

Are you laughing yet?

Dave

Stampmaster

Not sure if your original comment was tongue in cheek or not, but I agree with it. I'd much rather use my resources adding to my collection.

A friend recently made a nice find and thought that he needed to have it certified. I looked at the item and was convinced it was genuine. He sent it in to PF. It's been over 5 months and he's finally getting the word that it is good. 5 Months ! He's practically lost all interest in it.

Now the other shoe is going to drop, when he gets their bill ! They have taken all the fun out of that discovery.

I would have been happy to purchase the item from him, when he intially found it. But now by the time he adds all the pain and suffering, I'm no longer interested. I wouldn't be able to look at it without remembering all the crap he's went through with it. It's not more valuable to me just because someone confirmed what I already knew.

Not all expert services take five months! In fairness, there are some who take less than a week. But if you want the "gold standard" (the PF), you wait. And wait. I personally have an item there for several months already. I've had some items tied up for as long as 2+ years before a "final decision" is made.

Sometimes there are logical reasons for delays. Maybe there were conflicting opinions which necessitated asking an off-site expert to examine the item in question, thereby adding shipping and work time to the total. Who knows. But to knock all expert services as being irrevelant and not needed is unfair. So you know (or strongly believe you know) what an item is, but doesn't it make (good) sense to confirm it with a neutral third-party expert service? I think so (and it has nothing to do with my occupation - I've always felt this way and have used expert services extensively in my 45+ years of collecting various specialized subjects).

Previous poster, Bill you make a good point. "but doesn't it make (good) sense to confirm it with a neutral third-party expert service?" If you do not know how to properly examine a stamp in question, then you, get a certificate.

Dave