Black Jack With Grill - E, Z Or D?

Alright, after being encouraged by Historical DNA collector https://goscf.com/t/36552#381758, I'll drop some scans of a grill I am struggling to identify. All I know about the grills is what I've read from you good people on this forum - but still I do not feel in a position to make any conclusion at all.

So here goes (apologize for the poor scans, my company just decided to buy new multi-copy/scanners, naturally a step back in quality...)




Unfortunately Jackson looks a bit depressed about not being in the best shape, however he might be quite happy about the centering at least.


Reverse - before and after the carbon trick


I believe it's 14 by 18 points. Upper left row seems a bit weak. Orientation of the ridges? Well, as said the scans are poor, but some ridges seems to indicate horizontal orientation rather than vertical, indicating Z grill.

Or this might be nothing but a fake grill...? I am all ears to the big boys. Being a general WW-collector, this is a bit outside my comfort zone!
Any feedback highly appreciated.

-Jon-

Doubtful... even with the (not so clear) scan, points appear to be up...
Z-Grill is points down...

I think you're correct about the 14 x 18 count. The columns and rows are straight and and at right angles to each other. They are also all parallel and evenly spaced. The size and aspect ratio of your grill is nearly identical to Brian's (Rileysan) which is probably genuine and to disi's certed 85B Z-grill.

I'd say that it's a good candidate for being genuine. However, a non-genuine quality might be hidden because of the poor quality scan. Get a better scan of it or send it in for certification.

disi, you beat me to an answer. Did you ever send your 85b back to Bill to figure out if it was inverted or not?

disi123 - thanks for replying!
I have always been in doubt what is 'Points up' versus 'Points down'... The stamp I have I can see clearly the ridges are popping 'up' towards me when looking on the reverse side. Looking at the front - with a strong light on the side of the stamp, I can see the grooves are going down into the paper. That tells me the grill has been produced by applying a grill pattern on the front, pressing the points down into the paper.

So, when looking from the front it is 'points down' - but when looking at the reverse, the points are coming up towards me as in 'points up'. But I am in doubt if that makes it point up or down?

HDNAC - thanks for your judgement and for giving me a glimmer of hope! I will see if any of my colleagues have their old, but better, scanners....

Edit: - yepp, I found a 'good old' scanner. Still not the best - 600 dpi, somewhat better at least.



Does the higher resolution reveal anything?

Another edit: Guess what on earth my colleague was thinking when I banged his door, late at night, to get a scan of this tiny little thing? Probably something like 'Sailors are not what they used to be....'

The new scan is a LOT better. It does appear that the points have horizontal ridges, which only the Z-grill has. We can also clearly see that the points face downwards. If the points were up, then we'd see a grid of graphite colored squares with empty centers. Points down means that if you were looking at the face of the stamp, the tip of each pyramid shape of each point would below the plane of the stamp.

Read through the entirety of these threads for more info:
https://goscf.com/t/42029
https://goscf.com/t/41640

To me it appears genuine. For a more experienced answer hopefully essayk, Clark, Bill, or others will chime in.

Edit: P.S. You've go me curious. M/V? Ship's engineer?

H DNA C - - You are seeing exactly the same as I am. Thanks, your viewpoint is much appreciated. So, unless any other chime in with disappointing views - then this will be entered as my first 'z'!


The threads in the links below are great -


btw (regarding your curiosity)- Yepp, have been a 'sailor' deep-sea on M/Vs for many years, but I'm now a Marine leader/captain on a oil tanker used for floating oil production (think of it as an oil rig but onboard a ship).

I think you ***definitely*** need to send that stamp to one of the expert services. That's my best advice.....

Bill - thanks for chiming in. I'll take your comment as an positive indication your services will be well spent money...thanks. I will consider it, keeping in mind the expense will be high when including registered shipping across the big blue pool. Maybe I can find any experts over here as well, don't know really. As it is now I am quite pleased with letting the specimen fill a slot in my album!
Thanks to all for looking and/or contributing
-Jon-

That stamp, in your collection, without an expert certificate to verify that it is a "Z" grill, renders it rather valueless for future resale because no buyer will want to gamble that it is or isn't a "Z" grill. Your concerns about shipping are without merit because we get shipments all the time from many foreign countries and the cost of Registry is roughly $15/25. (USD). So the "back and forth" cost of shipping is roughly $30/50. and the cost of the expertizing (from me) is only $5. if the stamp is NOT a genuine "Z" grill and $45. if it is. So your total outlay if NOT a "Z" is Shipping + $5. and if a good "Z", shipping + $45.

And I am **NOT** promoting my service over any other, just trying to dispel your concerns about total cost. But the other services WILL be higher.

Thanks for your input Bill! Yepp, I do realize a (potential) cert would definitively increase resale value. But I am a collector, not a seller.... I hope to keep the ting in my album until I do not care for neither money or material no more. On the other hand, I might consider to get it certified for the sake of my kids or wife or whoever will clear out the stuff at that point!
I am quite confident it's well spend money and I am sure your services are the best. I'll consider until I get home in another 2 weeks.

Does anybody see anything on my particular stamp indicating that certification would not be a wise investment?

Blaamand, I have used Bill's service. It was a smooth transaction. Very prompt also.

All I can say is that there are a bunch of us following this and wishing you would just spend the money so we could know the answer and hopefully raise a glass of Champagne to you!

So no, there is nothing in the stamp that should slow you from contacting Bill!

I am no grill expert by any means but am really surprised how the scanned image quality makes a big difference in assessing the grill. In the first scans the grill appears fake to me as if made by a needle. In the better image it clearly is a genuine grill, what a difference resolution can make!

Definitely send it in. There is something else going on with this grill that has not gotten much attention. The count of rows and columns appears to be 14 x 18, which narrows the field to either Z or E. However, the orientation of the ridges is not as uniform as I would like to see it in order to say they are all horizontal. The reason this matters is because of a peculiarity in the E grill (and others) involving the "half point." Although the ridges of the E-grill are oriented vertically, the half point rows, always at top or bottom or both, normally appear to have horizontal orientation. meanwhile the "half point" columns on the Z grill will appear to have vertical orientation and appear at one side or the other.

Judgment about whether a row or column is a "half point" type is generally not easy for beginners at it, yet it is important for the proper identification of the grill. And, generally speaking, scans or photos are not much help because the angle of incidence in the lighting can change the appearance of the shape. Most users are not familiar with that problem and so do not know how to accommodate it. We have discussed and illustrated it here before, and a forum search on the word "grill" may turn up some illustrations.

Here's the thing: in terms of catalog value, there is a world of difference between a 2c with Z grill and a 2c with E grill. In view of the numbers cited, the cost of sending it off for a cert is worth it only if it proves to be a Z-grill. My suggestion is that you first get some skill at making the kinds of scans that will let us REALLY help you, and if we conclude that it is a Z grill then get a cert to prove it (which I think is the same as what you were thinking).

Do you need help with getting scans that will help you determine the orientation of the points and the half points? Do you need help posting larger images here? Or would you prefer not to fool with it and just bite the bullet to send it in? (Which you will probably want to do anyway for paper on a Z-grill.)

Edit- As for the curiosity factor that CJ mentioned, if satisfying the curiosity of others is the motivation, then maybe they can ante up to make the cost more affordable. Satisfaction usually comes at a price. It shouldn't just be up to you.

essayk, very good points. Especially about us not being able to determine if any rows or columns are partial from the 600dpi scan. Looking it over again it does appear that the outermost rows or columns could be partial. If one or both rows are partial then we can definitively identify it as an E-grill. The lack of partial rows would allow us to definitively identify it as a Z-grill. The presence of a single partial column could add to it as being genuine. A better scan would also allow us to better determine genuine or not.

Jon, assuming that you don't have access to a microscope capable of photography on your FPSO, try to scan the back with higher resolution at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degree orientation on the bed. This will illuminate the points at varying angles to the scanner head which would help visualize them. Any other tips essayk?