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3c Washington 207 Possible Double Impression

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Valued Member
Canada
108 Posts
Posted 10/08/2015   10:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ErrorsRock to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I just saw this stamp on ebay which looks very much like my stamp. What do you think?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/158j-VF-USED...em27d9a3d6c5
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
937 Posts
Posted 10/08/2015   11:44 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Historical DNA Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am no expert nor expertizer, but that stamp also seems to be a slip-print. The two are very similar. The poor quality scan makes it difficult to tell, but those fuzzy perforation tips would make this stamp NOT a #158. That was printed on hard paper. Your stamp's tips look a bit fuzzy too...

There is a listing for a #184b double impression which could be worth even more.

Earlier in this thread revenuecollector stated:

Quote:
Scott and the expertizing companies are extremely inconsistent as to what is a DI and what isn't...


If what he said is still true, then my "double impression" #319 could possibly be certified as the first and only DI for that issue. I could never bring myself to do it. It would be fun to have my own Scott catalogue listing though.
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Ryan = HDNAC = DNA = HDC = Hysterical DNA Collector = Historical DNA Collector = me who just loves stamps :)
Edited by Historical DNA Collector - 10/08/2015 11:58 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
937 Posts
Posted 10/08/2015   8:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Historical DNA Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Just noticed that your stamp is a redesigned #207, which essayk noticed early on when choosing which die proof to display. It also has a double impression variety listing: #207c. The ebay listing still looks to me to be a #184
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Ryan = HDNAC = DNA = HDC = Hysterical DNA Collector = Historical DNA Collector = me who just loves stamps :)
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 10/09/2015   2:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add essayk to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The stamp Langs is offering ( ebay) is from the Continental Bank Note Co. on hard paper, and has a cert from APEX to that effect. Your stamp is a soft paper re-engraved issue from the American Bank Note Co. They are not the same stamp, BUT
they have the same problem: they both represent a printing anomaly which some class as a double impression but which is not so regarded by the best authorities on the subject. A "slip print" a "kiss print" and what Pat Hearst called a "tympan impression" all result in the apparent doubling of design elements. But because they have different bases for origin they are not all regarded as the same. The experience of the Robert Siegel Auction house is instructive.


Quote:
Most double impressions occur when the first impression is made and found to be inadequate. The paper is then put in the press a second time, when it receives the heavier impression. It is a common misconception that the weaker impression is the second one.



It is noteworthy that their notion of "double impression" presumes that the second printing was intentional, intending to compensate for an initially weak impression. Presumably the printers wanted to place the second impression on the same spots occupied by the first. So far Siegel only recognizes three examples of #207c in its database.


Quote:
Our census of Scott 207c, available at our website at http://www.siegelauctions.com/dynam...07c/207c.pdf , includes only the three examples. No others are contained in the records of the Philatelic Foundation, and we did not find any in our search of past auction catalogues.


Please use their link.
In the matter of double impression, these three examples have something in common: the two impressions are not directly atop one another. Obviously it is a judgment call whether a close example is a good "near miss" of an intentional second printing or an example of one of the lesser, and more commonly acknowledged, variants, such as a slip print. HistDNA has already given you information on the nature of a slip print.

So let's compare. In this first example I have selected the stamp of their three that is closest to yours in overall condition and configuration.



When you look at the right sides of the two, the difference leaps out. There is a fuzziness in the Siegel example, which is certified by the PF, as in yours, but they differ substantially in degree.

The bottoms of the designs on the two stamps are very obviously different in character, but let us look at the tops where it is not so obvious:



The protruding design feature in UR, and the defaced lettering are way off by comparison. It is a matter of degree.

Siegel's page is sympathetic to the problem for collectors this poses:


Quote:
SPECIAL NOTE: There are many United States stamps that look similar to the rarities listed below. Some of the differences between expensive rarities and common stamps can be subtle, including differences in perforation, shade and size. These stamps should have certificates from a recognized expertizing committee, such as The Philatelic Foundation or P.S.E. If you think you have one of these rarities, we cannot help you until after it has such a certificate.


What about the Lang's stamp, it has a cert?
The problem with this is that the cert was issued by APEX in 1978, before the problems involving this particular printing anomaly had been investigated with the tools developed since then. Today I doubt that any of the major certification bodies, including APEX, would give this item a green light as a 158j. Bill L probably knows that. Whether or not he would allow for a second opinion I cannot say, but it is not to be assumed.

Here is the Langs stamp next to one of the other 207c items Siegel recognizes:



As before it is a matter of degree. But I had a reason for showing you this combo. The stamp on the right was featured in the 1978 Siegel Rarities sale where it realized $450 without certification. Note the year date and the date on the Langs certificate from APEX for his stamp. Both in 1978, the cert coming about two months after the Rarities sale. At the time Siegel had extolled the virtues of "their" stamp, admitting it was "probably unique" but did not mention a cert for it. However, in 2004 it sold again. By then it had been researched and certified, having endured a significant debate over it. This time it realized $25,000 in a regular Siegel sale of United States. A solid certificate makes a huge difference; hence the note by Siegel.

Notice how much of a second impression is visible at the top. This is not a mere blurring of the design, such as we see on the stamp Langs is offering.

Final comment: Consider the plight of this certified 207c used on cover.




In 2003 it sold for $7500
In 2012 at the Natalee Grace name sale, it sold for $4750
In 2014 at regular Siegel sale, it sold for $2000

I wonder what that means.

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
937 Posts
Posted 10/09/2015   4:18 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Historical DNA Collector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ah, the ebay (Lang's) stamp is a #158j (hard paper). I shouldn't have spoken definitively about a poor quality scan. Thank you for the correction and providing context about Lang's stamp.

Here's a closer view of the "#207c" on cover:



Only the bottom portion has been affected. Probably a "kiss print" which is the variety that you didn't describe. It could also be a slip print that occurred after the upper half of the stamp was peeled off of the plate. From http://www.re-entries.com/terms.html :

Quote:
Kiss prints occur when the stamp paper accidentally slaps back on to the plate, possibly picking up residual ink, or badly smearing the ink just printed. Of course, these are not constant.


I'm glad to hear that the major certification bodies have resolved the issue.
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Ryan = HDNAC = DNA = HDC = Hysterical DNA Collector = Historical DNA Collector = me who just loves stamps :)
Edited by Historical DNA Collector - 10/09/2015 4:25 pm
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