Poll: Grading Imperforate Stamps

And old car collectors want Hollywood to stop making movies which often destroys many classic cars in crash and 'shoot em up' scenes. The list of destroyed classic cars is shocking and sad (many models which were unique).

Bottom line is that few people would settle for being told what they can, and cannot, do with their own personal property. If a person wants to light cigars with rare stamps that they own that is their decision. This is another case where having a 'right' doesn't necessarily mean it is the right thing to do but unless we are willing to change personal property law I don't see any resolution.
Don

Most of those cars are either fakes or rusted out shells fixed up with spray paint, not working classics. They film the scenes with a good one and then switch cars. That's why it's called "special effects".
In any case responsibility should not have to be a matter of law, but simply of understanding what it is that one owns. This type of desecration is simply letting greed and ego run wild rather than having any genuine love of the hobby.

Sorry, you are incorrect. A typical movie will use 10-15 cars of the same model. Some are designated as 'disposable' and they tend to be the ones in rougher shape. There was a famous prop company in Hollywood which had a huge amount of classic cars they sold to movie companies, some of them were 'one of a kind'. This was a big issue with collectors for years, you can search online and find this info. When they finally closed their doors collectors rushed in to save what was left.

I am not sure what your experience is but I had several cars in the movie Dirty Dancing and was on set for many of the scenes. While they rented some cars from people like me, they also purchased quite few and cut up and welded camera mounts to some and destroyed others.
Don

Edit:
here are few...

The Rock – 1996 Ferrari F355 Spider

Back to the Future – 1946 Ford Super De Luxe Convertible

Con-Air – 1967 Corvette Sting Ray

Fast and the Furious – 1970 Dodge Charger

Bullitt - more than 80 cars destroyed

Gone In 60 Seconds - more than 93 cars destroyed

A Good Day To Die Hard more than 132 cars destroyed (over 7 million spent on just the cars fore this movie).

I do agree that many cars that are used (especially today) are not top end cars. Some are flood damaged or other insurance paid for. But this has been going on for decades, the list of classic 1930s cars destroyed in the 1950s and 1960s is astounding.

In no way am I saying that destroying anything with historical value is fine. I think we should be good stewards of these pieces of history. But this is America and people have the right to do what they wish with their own property.

In the 1950's no one cared about 1930's cars, they weren't thought of as classics, just old cars.
I understand that in America people can do whatever they want to with their own property. That does not excuse irresponsibility, nor does it prevent the rest of us from thinking them greedy thoughtless s. Nor does it prevent us from refusing to deal with those people or buy items such as these.

Unless they can be considered to be an important cultural historical item.

Apparently although people in America have the right to destroy anything they own regardless of it's scarcity, they don't have the right to call them what they are without being censored.

Of course we have the right to destroy or do as we choose with our own property. Problem I have is that the vast majority of collectors believe these jumbo trimmed/manufactured multiples and blocks that are getting super high grades are ugly and not genuine. Thus, why give the highest grade to a manufactured stamp that doesn't even come close to general size of the average stamp????

Collectors and investors are destroying them because of the "rules" set by grading companies. Obviously there are collectors buying these ugly jumbo imperforates. I'm not sure who this market is (according to poll here they are not likely collectors at stamp community). But I guess there is a market for it. Perhaps if collectors read this thread, they will refrain from bidding or buying these manufactured jumbos and an end will come to this.

One more final word about "non profits ". Let us not kid ourselves if we think non profits are not thinking about $$ all the time. I sit on 2 non-profit boards and and all we talk about at meetings is MONEY and how we need MORE of it. I'm sure the PF needs money as well as APS so they have to put self interest aside and find out what collectors ultimately feel is important. Otherwise there memberships will dwindle. Sounds like APS has a lot of problems already!!

Here we have an example of an auction house actually suggesting to the buyer that it should cut up a multiple to yield one stamp that grades higher. Daniel F. Kelleher Auctions, LLC, Sale 681, lot 1244, described as:




http://db.kelleherauctions.com/php/...=1244&lang=1

"The left stamp would be a huge margined example if cut from the pair." Translation, buy this lot at $300, cut the left stamp, get it graded 90+J, resell it for $500+. I had no idea they were making explicit suggestions to break up multiples like this.

I can't believe they are suggesting breaking up a beautiful pair like that.....Wait a minute, they're in the making money business so I can believe it.....

I think I remember a couple of years back, and on a different board, VSC I think, a pair of #17 was cut to make a high grade single...was it Momen who did that?

Reason I brought it up was I also recall Winston being really upset about it. That isn't the same pair, is it, Winston? When you posted this one, I was hoping you were able to save that pair I'm referring to..

Maybe I'm just getting old and imagining things!
Ray

Ray,
If you are, then we are getting old together because that sounds very familiar.
Don

The Kelleher pair sold for $177 this morning.

Ray,

Your memory serves you well. It was Momen Stamps that bought and destroyed a pair of #17 on very thin paper and, yes, I was pretty upset about it. I think the VSC thread even got mention in a Linn's article about breaking up multiples. The right stamp in the pair sold for around $250-300 and the jumbo stamp sold in a Rumsey auction for around $1700 I think. Not even enough to pay for the purchase price of the pair. What a waste. One other pair on very thin paper has come to auction but I didn't buy it. The pair that I posted in this thread is on normal paper but is indeed mine and will remain intact. The pair is in a class of its own and I seriously doubt (using my standards) that it can be bested.

It happens all of the time. The innocent are few and far between.

I have never liked the idea of grading because I personally feel that it creates an artificial sense of value. There are ugly high graded stamps and spectacular stamps that would get a poor grade. For multiples, it is even more so. It is less about the stamp (s) involved and more about creating an expectation of value based solely on money. I understand there is enough money in the market for graded stamps to ensure it's here to stay, but I don't like it.

P.s. Sinclair, your #17 pair is stunning! Thanks for sharing.