Looking For 1869-S Without Grill?

For the curious and interested: today's Siegel auction (Sale 1145) has certified examples of the 1869 1c,2c,15c,24c, and 30c without grill.
Lots 369-373


Not one of them catalogs at less than 5 figures, and it will be interesting to see how much they fetch.


By noon Eastern time they will have sold.

Lovely stamps. I will be interesting to see how well the catalog value is supported.
They also have some normal 1869's with the best centering I have ever seen.

The couple that got internet bids were at around 10% of catalog. Will there be additional action at the public auction?

Barely made 10% on very light bidding. For one lot he had to restart the bid at a lower start.

lot 369 1c -r. 3250 vs 35k cat
lot 370 2c - r 1800 vs 14k
lot 371 15c - 1300 vs 13k
lot 372 24c - 2300 vs 15k
lot 373 30c - 1700 vs 11k

Yah, well, ya know what really frosts my glutei maximi? The PF's 5.5%-of-cat.-value-certification-fee becomes a de facto fee of 50% of actual value on these stamps.

I read a lot about collectors being fleeced on ebay but it is amazing who gets a pass!!

Wow, too bad I wasn't in the market for one of these .. today was the day to buy.

Perhaps. Or the catalog over-values them based on demand that does not exist. They come up reasonably often at auction, but not a lot of buyers seem to want them. It is only a guess, but it's possible that many collectors of US want mostly a face-different collection, so once they have beautiful grilled 1869 issues, they focus on other areas and only come back to ungrilled copies only when a lot of other collecting interest is exhausted. Certainly there are specialists in this issue who would want them, but the buying audience may be much lower than the catalog value suggests.

I agree. Across the board in many areas of philately, esoteric rarities, with few known copies, now find themselves with supply out-stripping demand. The potential upside is that it often only takes a couple new powerful collectors of one area, to re-invigorate a particular specialty.

I don't know about the others on this forum, but -$1300 vs $13k for a single stamp is about the same for me -- both beyond my means.

"The PF's 5.5%-of-cat.-value-certification-fee becomes a de facto fee of 50% of actual value on these stamps".

That is not the PF's fault. They have no control over who bids or what they bid.

Yup. Neither do they control the imaginary dollar values printed in the stamp catalogs. That's where the real fault is.

Remember when Amos decided to adjust prices downward to reflect real market values in the 1989 Scott catalog, and US dealers (and some collectors too) threw a hissy-fit? And then, to mollify folks somewhat, they upped the condition of the stamps that they valued from F-VF to VF, so they could raise the catalog prices again? There are a lot of stamps that should take a 50-90% haircut in the catalogs, looking at actual market values, but I'd be shocked if they ever decided to do it.

It is the PF's fault. They have control over their fee structure. Pegging the fee to a value that is nearly impossible to realize is indefensible.

Not their problem. They don't set catalog prices, and they don't set auction realizations. And no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying "send it in".

Stop blaming the Scott catalogue. The PF is responsible for the fees they charge. There is actually a considerable amount of pressure exerted on collectors, especially when selling, to get many stamps certified. In fact, I bet Siegel will not sell one of the without-grill 1869's without a certificate.

I am also interested in why no one is questioning the auction house here. They were the ones who accepted 5% bids.

Bart, they sold for what they were worth. Look at the auction realizations. Aside from a few outliers, the prices are way way below the crazy values in the catalogue.