Let's Be Real: Are The PF And PSE Really Better Than Apes?

Over the years, I have been fascinated by the hierarchy of these three expertizing services and wonder how other members of the forum have felt about this. I understand, for whatever reason, that often a certified stamp accompanied by a PF or PSE certificate might bring more at auction than a stamp certified by APES. The question is really why this is so? I am not talking about graded certs, which was a PSE invention that has now been adopted by the PF. I am talking about considering purchasing a classic stamp with a clean APES certificate----would anyone hesitate to do that because it doesn't have a PF or PSE? My opinion: there is nothing wrong with the APES and for the life of me cannot understand why it has been relegated to the #3 position.

Not familiar with APES do you mean APS (American Philatelic Society) ?

Naturally I am referring to the American philatelic Expertizing service. What other Expertizing service is spoken of in the same league as the philatelic foundatio and pse. I must admit to being quite surprised and disappointed that three days later and 35 lurkers later there still hasn't been one post in response dealing with the substance of the thread. I could understand if this was the modern stamp foru but this is supposed to be for classic us stamps---doesn
t anyone on this panel have experience with these organizations
or don't you get your classic era stamps expertized

I haven't been around this Forum that long.

But quite frankly, at other places, it is a rather touchy subject. I remember how acrimonious it got between some of the major players, and to this day there is still some residual bad blood.

Let's face it, when it comes to professional expertizing, it's not all expertise. Sometimes a little something else gets mixed in. There's more than one reason why they give conflicting opinions on some items.

My advice remains the same -- in the long run, it is better to educate ourselves rather than rely on a handful of "experts". Knowledge is power -- it will save you more money than the professional expertizers.

My short time at SCF, I've learned quite a lot here. I think this is an excellent Forum for both beginners through the so-called "advanced" collectors (I use that term very loosely).

Well said khj, as for certificates, I use Philatelic Foundation due to regional reasons, I live near New York City. I would accept any of the three PF, PSE, and APS (APEX) as genuine certificates without any prejudice to a "pecking" order.

As for the comments from funcitypapa; "Naturally I am referring to the American philatelic Expertizing service." Well that would be APEX of the American Philatelic Society not the APES you refer to. The rest of your comments reflect a pompous attitude of this Forum and its members; if you don't like the Forum don't be a part of it. I enjoy this Forum and have learned much from it.

Khj's comments appreciated, relevant to the question posed--would have been relevant even if posted three days ago--why did it take my frustration to bring it out? I really don't know what others collect but if there is ultimatelly an intention to sellit is a fact of economics that a cert will promote the sale on more expensive items making the perception of the certifying organization relevant--the purpose of the question.

Andy1847: personal attacks directly towards another forum member is probably not what this board had in mind. Someone playing games with other forum members by acting As if you don't know what they are referring to would be pompous and insulting thrown right back at you---the idea behind starting the thread was to stimulate conversation not character attacks which is most inappropriate since we don't knowanything about one another. Since you represent yourself as a collector of shades,rather than argue whether to refer to the American philatelic as aps,apex,or apes why not make a comment on the shade thread I started 3 days ago and to my knowlege has not had any takers-- or is this also not a relevant topic for classic us stamps? As far as the forum and other forum members, I like it and them fine. I don't need your advice in that regard.

Several reasons:
-- this is not the only board I am active at
-- I'm on the road most of the time, sometimes I'm simply not around or don't get to a thread immediately (especially on threads that start during the weekends)
-- this is a specific topic I typically stay on the sidelines; as I mentioned earlier, I've seen too much over the years (I saw it get pretty ugly)
-- I don't use professional expertizing services, although there are a few that I do actively recommend when necessary (none of which are PF/PSE/APEX)
-- I'm already behind in updating/contributing to several threads (not just here); I only have so much free time, I'm basically on call 24 hours a day, so I can only post when I can catch a break and still stay awake
-- I'm still working on finishing my "things to do" list from the 1990's.
-- I'm still trying to find David's blue/red US airmails which I put in an envelope with his name, but still managed to get lost in the piles on my desk! #@%#^@!



This is my opinion, while still avoiding the issue of which one of the 3 is better/preferred -- get a simple expert opinion early if you absolutely need some assurance that what you got is real and has not been tampered with. In the internet age, there are enough experienced collectors online who can spot 99% of the problem stamps, and will pretty much do it for free. When you get ready to sell it (hopefully not in a rush), get it certified by whatever expertizing service is the flavor of the year. As you noted, preferences/reputations/perceptions change with time. What's WOWing the philatelic world today can be the laughingstock in a couple of years. All it takes is a couple of silly expertizing mistakes, which is bound to happen over time. The premium offered by the certificate goes up/down with the reputation of the expertizer, or when enough major players gang up against or promote a particular expertizer.

I really don't have any US stamps that need certification, so I guess my comment above is somewhat biased.

KHJ: once again you make some very good points. You don't have to justify to me or anyone else for that matter what posts you choose to respond to or how you spend your time? By the way, what kind of work do you do that keeps you on the road all the time, if that is not too personal? I don't understand the technique of pulling someone's response out in quotation marks as if we are in a courtroom with a stenographer. To me we are just having a conversation. I'm not trying to read every word you write literally; just respond to the general theme. I understand yours. But I disagree with you that experienced collectors can spot 99% of the problem stamps for sale. What is it you that collect in the realm of classic US stamps that does not suggest to you the need for certification? By the way, you mention other expertizing services that you would use instead of APS, PF, or PSE. Besides, Bill Weiss, who are you referring to?

By the way, support for my opinion that experienced collectors are not able to spot 99% of the bad stamps is this: if you go on line to the PSE website, they show you the opinions from certs from about #100,000 on. You can tell by the stamps being submitted that these would not have been purchased by a beginner; hence they were purchased by experienced collectors. The percentage of non-clean certs you will find I think is sobering.

funcitypapa: first of all I simply stated I am not familiar with APES do you mean APS (American Philatelic Society) ? I actually did a Internet search on APES looking for a expertizing service I never heard of, that is why I asked the question. As for your reply to my question, I still stand by my opinion of your reply though I will acknowledge we don't know anything about one another. Here is an example: "Since you represent yourself as a collector of shades,rather than argue whether to refer to the American philatelic as aps,apex,or apes why not make a comment on the shade thread I started 3 days ago and to my knowledge has not had any takers-- or is this also not a relevant topic for classic us stamps?"

Well from what I remember your thread had nothing to do with the US 1847 issue which is all I collect so I don't believe I could be of help to you with the questions you posed in that thread. That is why I didn't comment on it.

Anyway I'm done with this tit for tat garbage so say what you like about it all.

I run a very small non-profit organization. Thank you for asking.



It's for the benefit of others. By using quotes, readers can understand the posts/replies without having to read the entire thread.

It's also for my benefit. I'm going back and forth between threads here and elsewhere, while trying to do administrative work and also counseling. It helps me keep track. It helps me when others quote as well, as it refreshes the thread flow without making me reread all the earlier posts.



To clarify, I made that statement in the context of the internet age. So I was referring to the "collective" experience of "experienced collectors", not any single collector. There are many stamp forums in which members pretty readily notice problem stamps. Marty's thread here is a good example. Collectively, they can provide a pretty solid response.
https://www.stampcommunity.org/topi...D=6877#55054
All someone has to do is post a pic and ask.

The few classic US stamps I have are pretty basic, few of them particularly valuable. Getting them certified would cost me more that they are worth. I would rather spend my money buying more stamps.

Yes, for US stamps, Bill Weiss is the only one I actively recommend. But I have no problems with collectors using the 3 major US expertising organizations.

k

I differentiate between an experienced collector, and someone who may simply be trying to build an "advanced" collection. They may or may not be the same. Someone can spend a lot of time and money trying to build an advanced collection, and yet know very little about whether the stamp is genuine or even IDed properly. I consider an experienced collector, someone who is able to do so. However, the experienced collector may not necessarily have an advanced collection.

Therefore, my conclusion is different from yours regarding the stamps being submitted to PSE. When I see all those negative opinions, my first reaction is that many of those could have been noticed if the owner (or perspective buyer) had simply posted ahead of time and used the collective experience of a stamp forum. Most of us give our opinions for free, so why not take advantage of it? No one person can compare to the expertizers, but collectively, we can do a pretty good job of fingering problem stamps. It's an opportunity for most of us (including myself) to learn and get more experience in IDing stamps and problems. Based on my participation in various stamp forums/clubs and dealer discussions, I'm still convinced that 99% of problem stamps can be spotted if someone would simply ask.

k

That pretty much sums up my stamp collecting and most facets of my life

KirkS

very funny, Kirk!

I can't give you an opinion as the stamps I have expertized are all APEX and non other,as a member of the APS and with there expertizing service available when you purchase stamps from there store I have no reason to look elsewhere I'm sorry I can't help.
regards Harry

My personal preference is the APS service although I would have no problem using the PF. PSE, for me, is a different issue. I am not a fan of grading and have successfully, to date, been able to avoid that game, even as an active classic U.S. collector.