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Argentina 1864 5c Sc#7h?

 
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Posted 01/09/2012   4:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add cynical to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Is my id of this stamp as Argentina Sc#5 1862 5c Seal of the Republic correct? Real or fake? It has gum on the back.





Edit: I have changed the thread title given the apparent consensus that this is Argentina Sc#7H 1864 (probable fake).
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Edited by cynical - 01/10/2012 10:25 am

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Posted 01/09/2012   5:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add danko to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is definitely not #5. #5 has accent over you "u" in republic.
It could be #7H since c in centavo kind of narrow.
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Edited by danko - 01/09/2012 6:18 pm
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Posted 01/09/2012   6:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add danko to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What is that line right next to 5?

Anyhow, in my opinion it's most likely a fake. The center of the stamp lacking definition that I see on the stamp in the catalog, and as the note states 7C and 7H have been extensively counterfeited.

But that's just my opinion. You should wait for others to say something.

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Posted 01/09/2012   6:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Our friends at Stanley Gibbons acquired the plate for the 5c and reprinted it (and then modified the plate to 10c and 15c and "reprinted" those, too). Might this be such a reprint?

I agree that in Scott's listings, this would purport to be one of the 7H issues. Narrow C, no accent.

The original design should have 72 pearls around the ring, and without being too careful about counting, yours appears to. Some forgeries do not have 72 pearls...whether some do, or not, I do not know. Obviously, the reprints have 72 pearls, too.
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Posted 01/09/2012   7:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add philb to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When it comes to the first 17 Argentina stamps..i am not spending any serious money until I know what I am doing !!
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APS 070059 Life Member International Society of Guatemala Collectors I.S.G.C. #853
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Posted 01/09/2012   8:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Crude Fake

I believe the originals / Real ones have 78 Pearls on the inner circle. The fakes have 72, yours appears to have....72.

Here is what the real ones look like. The Devil is in the detail

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Argintine-C...em4aa57b5a26
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Edited by stallzer - 01/10/2012 11:25 am
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Posted 01/10/2012   1:44 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add khj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe the originals / Real ones have 78 Pearls on the inner circle. The fakes have 72

That is the general rule for the 10c stamp. It does NOT apply to the 5c stamp. Also, if it is a 10c stamp with 72 pearls, it is most likely am unofficial reprint. But back to the 5c stamp...

The originals AND unofficial reprints have 72 pearls for the 5c stamp. Any other number of pearls, then it is definitely a fake. This rule does not apply to the 10c and 15c stamps.

Your stamp appears to be a Lange (i.e., Gibbons) reprint, based on the plate wear. There is also a color difference between the originals and reprints, but that's always hard to verify on an uncalibrated scanner/monitor.

The 5c stamp in the eBay link appears to be genuine.
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Posted 01/10/2012   2:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That is the general rule for the 10c stamp. It does NOT apply to the 5c stamp


Ahhhh, thanks KHJ as I did not know that. Another thing learned on SCF !
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Posted 01/10/2012   2:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cjd to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Gibbons modified the 5c plate to create bogus 10c and 15c stamps. Gibbons either didn't know, or didn't care, that the 10c should have 78 pearls, and the 15c should have 71 pearls.

Due to the wide proliferation of Gibbons reprints, many people have probably never seen any of the three values with anything other than 72 pearls.
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Posted 01/10/2012   2:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add khj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
many people have probably never seen any of the three values with anything other than 72 pearls.

and many people probably don't have the patience to count them!

I always have to count twice on the 15c stamp, in case I missed one or double-counted one! But it's annoying when I count 71 the first time, 72 the second time, 71 the third time, 72 the fourth time...

Not that much easier marking them off on the scans as I count either...umm did I already count that before I marked it off, or am I counting after I mark them off...



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Posted 01/10/2012   3:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The only reason I knew about the 10 cent is that I own this fake / reprint




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Posted 01/10/2012   4:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cynical to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So if this is a Gibbons reprint is it an authorized reprint (such as the small queens in Canada) or is it a reprint where someone got hold of the plates (found, stole or whatever) and started printing their own stamps?
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Posted 01/10/2012   4:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stallzer to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You might find more info browsing around at SCADS http://www.scads.org/reference/reference.htm
Apparently the differences between the reprints and fakes are difficult to distinguish on the 5 Centavos.
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Posted 01/10/2012   5:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add khj to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So if this is a Gibbons reprint is it an authorized reprint (such as the small queens in Canada) or is it a reprint where someone got hold of the plates (found, stole or whatever) and started printing their own stamps?

It is not an authorized reprint, which is why I called the 5c an unofficial reprint, although others might call it a fake.

The original plate for the 5c stamp was acquired by Gibbons from Lange. They used it to reprint the 5c stamps (different paper and slightly different color), and also modified the denomination to print the 10c and 15c stamps. Since the number of pearls on the original 10c and 15c plates are different from the 5c plate, the Gibbons printing for those stamps are relatively easy to spot. The 10c and 15c Gibbons printings, I would definitely call fakes, as they were made from altering a different plate.

I don't know the original intent of Gibbons, so I don't know whether to call all 3 forgeries/counterfeits or not.
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Edited by khj - 01/10/2012 5:57 pm
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