Catalog Values For Germany: Michel Vs. Scott?

I'm getting back into dabbling with German material, an area I collected extensively as a youth.

I know that Michel is "the catalog standard" when it comes to German area, but the values quoted seem... well... "optimistic", which would be an understatement, in the same way that Gibbons pricing is quite optimistic on British material.

Then taking currency exchange rates into question, Michel values are often 2x to 3x what is listed in Scott, yet realized prices (online at least) seem to be far more in accord with what Scott indicates. For example, 25-40% of Scott as opposed to 5-15% of Michel.

I've always looked askance at listings, especially from U.S. sellers, that publish Michel or Gibbons values rather than Scott, as the numbers are almost universally inflated, making it appear that the value received is higher, i.e., used as a marketing tactic. That's a personal bias on my part though.

I understand using Michel numbers for attribution, but do their values really have any basis in reality?

Hi revenuecollector,

Gibbons' catalogue values are way beyond optimistic, at least for GB material, being the prices they would like to charge collectors buying directly from them. I have visited their London shop in the Strand many times and have not found the stamps on show there any better than material I have bought from small dealers, or from sellers on the bay, at much lower prices, typically 25 to 40% of Gibbons' catalogue. I suspect most catalogues over egg their prices. One reason I only buy catalogues from 5 or 6 years back.

Terry
Edit for typo. TC

I think another reason is that the stamps of a certain country tend to be higher in that country. The examples above, Great Britain and Germany, are the same with two other European countries I am familiar with. In Switzerland the Zumstein is generally higher than Scott and in the Netherlands the NVPH Speciale is higher also!

Peter

Which is the biggest reason, I believe, that prices differ so much. Demand for German stamps in Germany is far different than demand for them here in North America. There are times, however, when you have to use Michel as the price standard. Scott simply does not list all varieties and Michel is the only source.

Brian

Revenuecollector,

I collect Germany and frequently buy stamps from dealers and collectors in Germany. They seem to pay about as much attention to Michel catalog prices as we do Scott.

The Michel catalog has the same pricing method as Scott: "Alle Bewertungen basieren auf den im Fachhandel üblichen Verkaufspreisen und gelten für Marken in der am Beginn der jeweiligen Katalogskapitel bzw. einzelnen Ausgaben beschriebenen Qualität ... " (All valuations are based on the usual retail prices in stores and apply to the quality described at the beginning of the catalog section or individual issues.)

You mentioned currency exchange rates, which definitely affect the US dollar prices, but you also must keep in mind that the markets are different too. Michel is pricing stamps sold to German collectors, not the US market. I see MNH (Postfrisch) stamps for 5% to 25% of Michel. The more specialized stamps are just as crazy there as they are here. I've been outbid at auctions (Heinrich Köhler) for specialized stamps that realized over 100% of Michel.

Maybe I'm rationalizing a bit but the quality of the stamps I buy from German collectors/dealers seems better than those I've seen on the US market. (well centered, good perfs etc.) That condition would command a slight premium as well.

It all boils down to how badly you want the stamp and how much you are willing to pay.

Dan

In my opinion the market/country differences should have disappeared, or at least closed, about 10 years ago when the landscape changed with the internet.
don

Don, I am not sure that the Internet had much affect on the exchange rate USD to EUR. Nor do I think that the demand to collect historical items of one's own country was affected. Market/Country differences usually are tied to the individual economy. When a country economy goes up, more expendable income, more collectors of historical items, stamp prices rise in that country due to the demand, with a ripple effect.

I don't use Scott much for Germany, so it's difficult for me to compare.

That being said, I think much of the discrepancy is based on what sources you're considering for prices. If you look at the prices being paid at major German auctionhouses, the Michel catalog prices aren't quite as inflated. They're still inflated, of course, but it's more in line with what you see in the US with regard to Scott pricing on US materials.

And as Dan mentioned, much of it also depends on the level of specialization -- I've paid >100% of catalog on numerous occasions for specialized items. (Was that you driving up the price on me, Dan?!? ) The more valuable items (i.e., stuff you generally wouldn't find on ebay) generally goes for about 50%-60% of MCV.

Additionally, in general, collectors in Germany are far more concerned with quality and condition than most, and that tends to be reflected in Michel's prices as well. They price for über-pristine condition, which you're unlike to see very often.

Buy according to Scott, sell according to Michel (or SG)

I find Delcampe to be the most accurate indication of the value of German stamps. I normally pay no more than 25% of catalog (Michel) and I agree that in general, the quality of stamps from German sellers is much better than that on the US market.

I had a dealer, based in the US, once tell me that his price list for Germany was priced at 60% of Michel, which came out to a good 100-150% of Scott in most cases. He then couldn't understand why I asked him if there was any room to negotiate on the total price of an order I was thinking about placing. Go figure. I don't currently own a Michel Germany Specialized but I'd like to someday, just for the information in it, not the prices.

Scott catalog prices were revised (in the 80s?) to reflect "retail" prices rather than "reference" prices, which resulted in about a 50% cut. Michel still uses references prices as far as I know. So for catalogs that use reference values, the recommended haircut to reality is about 50%.

Catalog prices would be much more realistic if for example Scotts stated "Value based on Stamp being XF superb Gem" instead of VF.