Stamp Community Family of Web Sites
Thousands of stamps, consistently graded, competitively priced and hundreds of in-depth blog posts to read
Stamp Community Forum
 
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some stamps?
Our stamp forum is completely free! Register Now!

1c 1851 Plate 1-Late Stamps

Previous Page | Next Page    
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 420 / Views: 39,544Next Topic
Page: of 28
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2394 Posts
Posted 11/29/2017   9:21 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It can't be from Plate 1E.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2288 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   08:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting discussion.

I see clearly, the mesh pattern on the 3c stamp you posted, sinclair. That's a very interesting observation on your part. Its nothing I'm familiar with.

It doesn't seem quite as evident on the plate 2 1c stamp ... but maybe also there.

I would say, I'll have to go pull out all of my stamps and compare, except these days, almost all of my stamps are on cover, which, for this .. not so good. I probably have enough, however, to make a simple comparison. You definitely have my curiosity up.

I'm certainly familiar with the higher rag content that went into the paper circa mid 1857, around when Toppan-Carpenter started rolling out the second contract stamps. This, however, is news to me. Do you have any prior art to point to on this, or is this just something you noticed yourself?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2288 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   08:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rgstamp - regarding the dingle -- think of the dingle as a point where the A relief shows "more" of the full design than the B relief, at the bottom. In most other areas, the B relief is more complete at the bottom than the A relief. The dingle is the exception, so yes, it is on all A reliefs, by definition.

njs900 is responsible for this discovery (the dingle). Our study group was involved with trying to figure out the effects of guide reliefing or general transfer roll (over)-rocking on the various Transfer roll #1 plates of the 1c stamp. I recall when njs900 called me one night, and asked me to look at my 9th row B reliefs. It didn't take too much looking to figure out that he was definitely correct, in that with the transfer roll adjustment, to enter the 10th row B relief, that the bottom of an A relief would sit over the bottom of the 9th row B relief, thus imparting dingles. You can thank him for the name
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
900 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   09:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for dingle info. Nothing in Neinken about it so presumed more recent discovery
I thought it may help plate the stamp, but would only help if B relief. Since A, doesn't aid much here.

That stamp still driving me nuts


If plate 1E, then 13L1E could be it but missing important plate mark upper right

Or if plate 2, just not sure...?

Initially I thought bottom was recut but top definitely not. Definitely doesn't plate or match to top row plate 1L
.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2288 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   09:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A reliefs from Transfer roll #1 can be notoriously hard to plate, when they have no easy markings. That's where left side ornament shortness or completeness comes in to play, along with very light plating marks, like small plate scratches, which are often consistent, but not noted in Neinken. You need reference material to get those right.

I was able to confirm a 1E A relief plating last month using the 1c plating archive. Without the reference copy from there, it would have been difficult.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2288 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   10:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
dingle - yes, njs900 found it in the mid 1990s, as part of our study group. I published the initial find in a short-lived publication I was making at the time, for our study group.

If I recall, I believe it got well written up in the 1851 Sesquicentennial book by the Classics Society.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1411 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   6:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
txstamp--the dingle was mentioned and credited on page 17 of the 1851 Sesquicentennial book (article by Celler and Omiya). That's how I first learned of it.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
952 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   6:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
What is this "dingle" that you guys are talking about?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2288 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   7:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add txstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
dingle - I already gave a very high level overview of it -- if someone has the time to make a scan of it and post, that would be great. It certainly requires a picture, and I'm not in a position to make one at the moment.

njs900 - If you happen to stop by, this would be a good place for you to step in.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
1411 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   7:57 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add dudley to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
jaxom, the "dingle" is a fragment of the left plume that was transferred to all A Relief positions and ninth-row B Relief positions on Plates 1, 2 and 3. It appears as a short line segment extending horizontally to the right from the left plume remnant. See image below (13L1L, chosen at random from the Plating Archive).


Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
Learn More...
United States
2394 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   8:10 pm  Show Profile Check sinclair2010's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sinclair2010 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I see clearly, the mesh pattern on the 3c stamp you posted, sinclair. That's a very interesting observation on your part. Its nothing I'm familiar with.

It doesn't seem quite as evident on the plate 2 1c stamp ... but maybe also there.


It's there. These kinds of details don't always show the same from scanner to scanner. I can buy a stamp with a stitch watermark that I can see clearly in the listing only to not be able to produce a decent scan with my scanner.


Quote:
I'm certainly familiar with the higher rag content that went into the paper circa mid 1857, around when Toppan-Carpenter started rolling out the second contract stamps. This, however, is news to me. Do you have any prior art to point to on this, or is this just something you noticed yourself?


It is my own discovery. There probably has never been anybody that has spent so much time looking at the other side of stamps than me.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
952 Posts
Posted 11/30/2017   11:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Dudley for taking the time to show me the dingle.

Rather than remain quiet and stupid, I figured I would speak up and remove all doubt....

Hmm. that did not come out right...

Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by jaxom100 - 11/30/2017 11:57 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
952 Posts
Posted 12/01/2017   9:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Referring back to the last stamp we talked about, I think I may have a possible plate position for it thanks to littleriverphil's marks in the lettering. Also looking at the top left scroll work. Here are pictures of my stamp and the closeups of the one on the Doporto site for 20L2.

What do you guys think?













Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
900 Posts
Posted 12/01/2017   10:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rgstamp to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lower right plume of your stamp doesn't match 20L2. Your stamp is "short" in this area. Is your stamp scuffed or damaged bottom right?
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Pillar Of The Community
United States
952 Posts
Posted 12/01/2017   10:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It is a little soft around the edges but does not look scuffed.
The top right is blurry for some reason. It is not the scan that is blurry.




On second look... there is some sort of discoloration/line right at the point where the design fades. The it turns down right before then ball under the right plume. hmm.. Almost looks like a coffee stain on the corner or something that left a mark on the area it touched.
Send note to Staff  Go to Top of Page
Edited by jaxom100 - 12/01/2017 11:11 pm
Page: of 28 Previous TopicReplies: 420 / Views: 39,544Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


Go to Top of Page
Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Stamp Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Stamp Community Family - All rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Stamp Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Privacy Policy / Terms of Use    Advertise Here
Stamp Community Forum © 2007 - 2021 Stamp Community Forums
It took 8.97 seconds to lick this stamp. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05