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Argentina 1890 - 10c Brown - MI #70 / SC #78 - Exists In 3 Different Types - Illustrations Wanted...

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
4431 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   09:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
We call this FLY-SPECKING. Looks more like a worn printing plate and a scratch on the printing plate .

On these issues of that time period shade varieties from different printings are found in more advance collections .
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Pillar Of The Community
1439 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   09:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jkjblue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
These sealings present a progressive wear, and there are no 100% defined states of any of the types, that is why arbitrary parameters were set such as the forehead strips or the sight of the pearls.
If you look carefully, once you know what to look for, you will find that at least half of your stamps have traces of the pearls, although very weak.
Also the type I (initial state) lasted very little, because neither the "sample" that I have (and I guess they separated to send to Geneva at the beginning of the roll) have the lines of the forehead.



Quote:
it is a progressive issue and it is quite difficult to find well representative stamps of each of the three cataloged states; It is as if they were all in different degrees.


...from a discussion by Argentinian specialists at http://foro.filateliaargentina.org
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Classical era collecting with the Blues
http://bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/
Edited by Jkjblue - 05/01/2018 10:04 am
Pillar Of The Community
1439 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   10:14 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jkjblue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Example "Types" from Argentinian website...

http://foro.filateliaargentina.org/


Type I


Type II


Type III

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Classical era collecting with the Blues
http://bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/
Edited by Jkjblue - 05/01/2018 10:21 am
Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   2:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@galeoptix - thanks for the great link to that Argentinian website, very useful. And thanks to Jim for posting the relevant contents in this thread.


Quote:
We call this FLY-SPECKING

I respectfully do not fully agree. The diagonal stroke on the forehead is quite prominent on several stamps shown in this thread, and some others show no or minimal trace of it. Galeoptics image (from the Argentinian forum that was intended to show shades) shows no less than 3 of 4 stamps as having this stroke, and even the 4th has a slight trace. Whatever the reason for the stroke in the first place, it seems to me these are so common it is more than fly-specking?

Maybe it would have been more precise to describe the 3 'types' as early, intermediate or late printings? I am guessing at this point, but it appears to me the original plates had both the pearls and the strokes on the forehead on all plate positions, but these details got more and more worn over time until not visible at all.



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Pillar Of The Community
1439 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   3:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jkjblue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Maybe it would have been more precise to describe the 3 'types' as early, intermediate or late printings? I am guessing at this point, but it appears to me the original plates had both the pearls and the strokes on the forehead on all plate positions, but these details got more and more worn over time until not visible at all.


Yes, I agree, that makes the most logical sense.




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Classical era collecting with the Blues
http://bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/
Pillar Of The Community
Netherlands
925 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   4:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Galeoptix to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would like to dig into this when I am back home in two weeks from now.

For the next couple of days I will be enjoying a heatwave in southern Poland, in Cracow!
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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 05/01/2018   5:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Jim.
@Galeoptix - your studies would be very welcome! Enjoy Cracow, that's an amazing place.
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Valued Member
United States
496 Posts
Posted 07/06/2018   08:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Is there any discussion or study on types of paper used in printing? I've found different fiber fragments in the paper weave on the back of several Sc #78's.
Here are two examples, both are type III.


Red Fiber


Blue Fiber
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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 09/04/2018   11:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Update - I obtained an old Specialized Argentina Catalog - Kneitschel 1951, as a very kind gesture from another classical collector.
What did I find in that catalog?



Specialists catalogs; nothing compares
Thank you very much Nelson
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Valued Member
United States
496 Posts
Posted 09/04/2018   6:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice! Thank you!
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Valued Member
United States
496 Posts
Posted 07/27/2019   08:17 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Can anyone tell me if this Sc #78 stamp was ever produced as an imperforate?
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Valued Member
United States
379 Posts
Posted 07/27/2019   1:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, the Guillermo Jalil catalog shows it in either of the main shades in imperforate pairs. In the more common lighter shades it's also available as a vertical pair, imperforate between. They however don't differentiate between the three types discussed here, so no idea which state is correct for the imperf. There are also many different imperf proofs and likely "Hamburg Forgeries" (modern computer printed).
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
4431 Posts
Posted 07/27/2019   1:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add floortrader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You guys crack me up .

Your using a term out of context ,most old timer experts use the term "worn plate/ worn impression " or "early impression or late impression" when your talking about 1840's or 1850's printing ,for example ,it is used on the POST PAID issues of Mauritius ,these would be 1848-1859 issues .
To use early impression or worn plate on a 1890's stamp is unusual ,too late so it is better to call it a damaged plate and repaired printing .
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Edited by floortrader - 07/27/2019 1:50 pm
Valued Member
United States
379 Posts
Posted 07/28/2019   6:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add billsey to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
But in this case it's valid. The fine details wore away during use of the plate. It's not a case of the design being recut after wear, it's just that wear was allowed to continue during the life of the plate. The earliest impressions show the pearls and later impressions do not. What's surprising is the scratches on the forehead also went away as the plate wore... I expect the reason Jalil doesn't call out the difference is that there is no demarcation between states, they just gradually changed throughout the life of the plate or plates.
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Edited by billsey - 07/28/2019 6:17 pm
Valued Member
United States
496 Posts
Posted 11/29/2019   6:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Moyock13 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I've been looking for an Argentina Sc #78 type I for about a year now. Well, dang! I found an entire block! It is unfortunate though that the block wasn't handled well in it's life, there are smudges and minor stains.

Here's the entire block front and back. 6 have the oblique strokes on the forehead, 2 do not. They all have prominent pearls in the side bars. Makes me wonder if type I & II are found on the same sheet all of the time.




Here's a single, this stamp is from the bottom row second from the right. Notice the pearls in the side bars.


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