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Overrun Countries Question, 920 Vs 920B

 
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Posted 02/22/2021   10:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add mccune68 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I like to collect recognized color varieties from the Scott catalog, but this one has me a little confused. I only have the Scott US Pocket catalog, not the full US Specialized, so it doesn't list every minor variety, but it does have en entry for 920b; it does not list any 920a.

For 920, it lists it as "blue violet, red & black", with a value of 30 cents mint, 25 cents used. 920b is listed as "blue violet, red & gray", with the same values of 30/25 cents. So I figured 920b was a relatively common color variety, yet I can't seem to find available sales for it for prices close to the catalog values.

The Swedish Tiger site mentions a 920a produced by reversing the printing process of the flag and printing the red over the black. Is that the same as this listing as 920b? I know sometimes these catalog numbers change and not everyone knows about them, is that the case here? If so, is this really a rare variety that would be worth $100 or more like I have seen on eBay/Hipstamp?
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Posted 02/22/2021   12:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
920a and 920b are different. 920a is reverse printing of flag colors (red over black) valued at $150 used per Scott (no price for mint). Stuart Katz has some listings on eBay that are described wrong and lead to confusion.
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Posted 02/23/2021   12:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Many of you are aware that I work closely with Keith Litchman on his excellent series of books the Overrun Countries Issues. Keith recently completed Book #8 on Greece and he is working on Book #9, Yugoslavia. I supply him with with information on print errors, varieties and oddities to verify his finds and use in his research. Exhibits for each of the eight countries are posted in the StampSmarter Library. A Country Exhibit is uploaded after each new Book is completed by Keith.

During printing by American Bank Note Co., perhaps due to testing, carelessness, rushing the job, after a press shutdown for a shift change or press repair, the ink-pot positions were confused and ink loaded into the incorrect positions on press, thus creating the reverse printings. (Click here to learn how this issue was printed, pages 2-5:)
https://stampsmarter.org/learning/a...ml#gallery-1

So, examples of "Red over Black" are considered "rare" by Scott, which is why Scott doesn't list a price for item or better explained, where Dealers have not supplied prices to Scott for the item.

Below find examples of Sc#920a/top and 920b/bottom. I believe the Gray was the first printing while the Black was the second printing. However, I need to do more research on the issue and the best way to check is looking at First Day of Issue usage. If I am correct, you will not find the Deep Black color issue with First Day cancellations. Hopefully, some SCF members will prove otherwise. (Remember: Deep Black on FDC.)

To show the differences: Sc#920a (top) and 920b (bottom).

Sc# 920a Black

Sc# 920b Gray


Is 920b Rare? RARE is defined as "...not found in large numbers and consequently of interest or value". I was taught "rare" to mean by Dealers (over 60 years ago) as "five copies or less!" I would define 920b as "SCARCE" meaning there are more than two sheets out there. I have four inscription blocks plus that many individual singles; Keith Litchman has at least one; plus Katz. I've seen others advertised over the years so that makes over 10 copies so, I'm not sure what number constitutes "rare" today.

I will say this, there is nothing that will ever be able to explain Scott Editor's logic when it comes to listings OR pricing. I find Katz's prices normally reflective of scarcity (not all-most).

However, the color that is very "RARE" is the Sc# 920c Red over Gray. GRAY as in LIGHT GRAY, almost a SILVER color. (below):


You'll also find the Flagpole comes in an unlisted Dark Reddish-Brown color! Color: SCARCE

Dark Red-Brown Pole
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Edited by Hal - 02/23/2021 12:12 am
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Posted 02/23/2021   08:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A great education Hal. Many thanks!
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Posted 02/23/2021   09:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add blcjr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting, Hal. I am confused though on one point, where you say:

Quote:
If I am correct, you will not find the Deep Black color issue with First Day cancellations. Hopefully, some SCF members will prove otherwise. (Remember: Deep Black on FDC.)


I do not see any other mention of "Deep Black" in your post. Is this some other unlisted variation?
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Posted 02/23/2021   1:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
blcjr: Sorry about that one...my fault when typing.

The Sc# 920a ~ BLACK ink I illustrated is a "DEEP BLACK" color ink, which includes a "Varnish" or "Lacquer". The varnish or lacquer gives the dried black ink a rich, shiny color...appearing "DEEP BLACK", as in the Sc# 920a shown, versus a Flat Black or Dull Black. The Sc#920a comes in both "DEEP BLACK" and "FLAT or DULL BLACK" ink varieties; I consider them the same price and scarcity.


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Posted 02/23/2021   1:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
rogdcam: Thanks!

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Edited by Hal - 02/23/2021 1:23 pm
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Posted 02/23/2021   1:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mccune68 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hal, thank you so much for the informative post. Can you clarify how the #920 (not a/b) factors into this at all? I'm not quite understanding how one differentiates between #920 and #920a visually.

I did go through my spare copies of this stamp and I think I might have a #920b. It's the top example of these two (posted images of both for comparison):



I know that stamp color is not able to be 100% nailed down on PC images, but visually the black/gray in the flag of this one does look noticeably lighter than my other copies. Even where it goes over the white parts of the flag, it is lighter than the others, leading me to believe it's not caused by being black printed over with red, but actually that lighter gray of #920b. Does this seem plausible?
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Posted 02/23/2021   3:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add blcjr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Hal. All clear now.
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Posted 02/24/2021   12:26 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hal to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
mccune68; OK, you hit on a major problem with how Scott does descriptions with this Issue (another personal pet peeve - they made a mistake in 1943, and it's forever engraved in stone!)

SC#920a is Blue Violet, Red over Black, simple enough. HOWEVER, in printing there is a very big difference between the termininolgy and the imposition (layering) of color between the word "AND" versus ""OVER". Scott, being a both a Printer and a Publisher should be embarrassed in not using the terminology correctly in their write-ups!

Sc# 920 Blue Violet; Red and Black --> Wrong! it's Red OVER Black! This is the most common variety. The colors are not together, they are layered! SO, the reverse printing of this would be BLACK OVER RED, correct?? But, how does Scott list it...they list it backwards (Red/Black!)
Sc# 920a Blue Violet; Red over Black -->This is a TYPO! The REVERSE of the ABOVE is BLACK OVER RED!!! This is a scarce printing and is unpriced by Scott! Scott Editors repeat the same mistake for 920b & 920c; at least they were consistent.

To understand printing basics on this stamp, I'll explain how color was laid-down on paper to rotary printing. The other Blue violet border is engraved, the Inner Flag by Rotary printing.


Sheet Layout 200 Subject Layout Type 1


or 400 Subject Layout Type 2


The "Country Name" was printed with a separate Linotype Printing Plate residing in the 5th Roll/Plate position on Press. (Exhibit pjs 2-5 above)


Rotary Print Color Imposition would have been (C/Y/M/K) with the Cyan Roller omitted. Print color was laid down in the following print order:
Correct Printing: REVERSE PRINTING:
1. Yellow (base) Yellow (base)
2. (omitted) (omitted)
3. Magenta Black
4. Black Magenta

5. Linotype Magenta Linotype Magenta

How To Check For Reverse Printings:
Since I haven't created artwork for the Denmark Flag, I am using the Poland Flag to illustrate "how/where to" check to verify "Reverse Printings" on these issues.
Here are the key checkpoints to the correct identification of black ink over bright red ink print variety:


1. Check the lower left corner of the flag, where the flag meets the flagpole (also known as the bottom hoist end), as shown in Figure 1. The black ink should overlap the bright red ink, where the flag meets the flagpole.
2. Check both the left and right sides of the flag, where the bright red and white fields meet (Figure. 2.) Here, overlapping color or color slightly out of registration (alignment), horizontally or vertically, will make it easy for printing identification.
3. Check along the bottom black shading row dashes along the bottom of the flag (Figure 3.) The black ink should ride over the top of the bright red ink.
4. Check along the top black shading row dashes, where the red and white portions of the flag meet in the middle (Figure 4.) The black ink should ride over the top of the bright red ink.

The way the color was played down on Sc# 909-921 was: Frame + Y/C/M/K + Linotype ( or Blue Violet + Yellow/Cyan/Magenta/Black + Linotype Color Plate, in that order, first to last).

Of course, if you think you have a Reverse Printing it's best to get a Certificate from the Philatelic Foundation or the American Philatelic Society for your find.

Hope that explains the confusing Scott write-ups under the Overrun Countries Issue; I hope I haven't made it harder to understand..

N.B.: The Denmark issue also has a Double Impression of the Black Flagpole. You'll have to wait for the Denmark Book to learn "why" or how this happens? (Hint: Has to due with the fact there was no Cyan Plate, which is also how I think they ended up with a Reddish-Brown Pole.)

Hal
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