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Help With GB One Penny Red ID

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Posted 03/28/2022   2:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Stamps4Life to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have the attached and am trying to ID SG number.... Maybe SG 7 or 8? What are the differences ? I cannot tell - is it the SG 7 lists (shades) and SG8 does not??? Can anyone provide some details as to the correct ID please. Wmk is small crown. Its actually a little duller in color and a tad more orangish/brownish Tks

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Posted 03/28/2022   3:24 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add classic_paper to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Shades/colors won't work to reliably determine which one it is, the only way is to plate it. SG7 was printed in red from plates 1b, 2, 5, 8, 9,10, and 11 (these plates were previously used to print the penny black). SG8-SG12 were printed on plates 12-177, which were used solely for penny reds. Plating these is a thing, luckily there's plenty available out there to help you out.
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Edited by classic_paper - 03/28/2022 3:25 pm
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Posted 03/28/2022   3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
SG7 was printed from plates previously used to print Penny Blacks; i.e., SG 7 is from plates 1 - 11. SG8 and up are plates only used to print the Penny Red; i.e., they are from plates 12 and up.
So, you will have to plate the stamp.
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Posted 03/28/2022   3:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The only Black plates with the low right G are plates 5 and 9. The first is offset to the left.
The horizontal line of the G is quite distinct and reminiscent of plate 11. This has a slightly low G. Yours is set lower.
Another distinctive feature of your stamp is the upper frame line of the right-hand star that is extended. The vertical outer frame line is very strong.
These are further indications that it is not plate 11.

So, a very good chance it is not SG7.
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Edited by NSK - 03/28/2022 3:36 pm
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Posted 03/28/2022   4:10 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stamps4Life to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I have from another board plate 124 I was told. But I dont know how to tell. I think also the letters are state IV, but once again I was told state I - so im lost there too.
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Posted 03/28/2022   4:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I doubt it is plate 124. The right-hand star right frame line does not fit, the vertical stroke on the lower right of the G does not fit. The imprimatur shows hardly any rays on the right, yours has quite prominent rays at 2 and 3 o'clock. Since the imprimatur, normally, is the earliest printing, the plate must have been repaired to fit.

The person who identified it as plate 124 may have seen the extended top frame line of the right-hand star and small bulge below it and ran with it, ignoring all signs to the contrary.

I am not sure whether by 'state'of the letter you mean the alphabet type. Type IV is not in scope for the imperforate Penny Red. Only I and II are.
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Edited by NSK - 03/28/2022 4:37 pm
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Posted 03/28/2022   4:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stamps4Life to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes Type. Im trying to figure out the GBPS E gauge now and its frustrating as well. I cant figure out how they are measuring.... Cant seem to get it. My values are off
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Edited by Stamps4Life - 03/28/2022 5:11 pm
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Posted 03/28/2022   6:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
To my eyes it looks like a plate 125.
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Posted 03/28/2022   6:54 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stamps4Life to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So to me it looks like Type IV ???


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Posted 03/28/2022   10:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Stamps4Life,

The SG QV specialised (16th ed. p.79) says that plates 12 to 131 use alphabet one.

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Edited by Bobby De La Rue - 03/28/2022 10:58 pm
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Posted 03/28/2022   11:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Just_fella to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like type ll to me



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Edited by Just_fella - 03/28/2022 11:16 pm
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Posted 03/29/2022   12:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Stamps4Life to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Hi Stamps4Life,

The SG QV specialised (16th ed. p.79) says that plates 12 to 131 use alphabet one.


ok, please tell me if I am on the right track keeping in mind, I know nothing about this plating...

I originally asked if SG 7 or 8 and what the difference is, red-brown / shades... Basic answer, has to be plated.

Anything after SG12p has to be perf or white lines added or letters in all corners, and later than 1841 (late Feb.), right? If so than mine has to be 1841 AND Alphabet I (SG Commonwealth & British Empire 1840-1970, p.GB1) as Alphabet II,III and IV did not come into use until 1852 and later.
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Posted 03/29/2022   01:30 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1d reds with letters in all four corners are much later (late-1850s), are perforated and have the plate number in the design, on both sides of the Queen's head.
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Posted 03/29/2022   02:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bobby De La Rue to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes Stamps4Life, you're on the right track with what you've said.

SG7 = printed from the plates that produced the penny black.

SG8 = plates 12 and onwards.

Plate 125 was registered on 25 July 1851.

The last plate (no. 177) was registered on 20 July 1853.

Official perforation commenced in early 1854. Plates as early as no. 155 were perforated.

Penny reds are arguably the most fascinating stamps ever produced, but you'll need to get the SG QV specialised as an absolute bare minimum to get into the details.
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Posted 03/29/2022   02:12 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I see that Gibbons has now split the QV Specialised into two volumes. Scary!
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Posted 03/29/2022   02:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add NSK to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@Stamps4Life,

As Bobby De La Rue wrote:
Plates 1 - 131 had alphabet type I. In this case the top right ones, both for the P and G.
Plates 132 and onwards for imperforate issues had alphabet II.
Type IV is out of the question.
https://www.gbps.org.uk/information...phabet-I.php

@Bobby,

If you only look at the corner letters, plate 125 would be a reasonable candidate. However, compare the frame of the right star. It misses the extension that plate 124 has: compare adjoining stamp PH for a weak example of the extension. It is very strong on the posted stamp. Plate 125 shows a rather rounded top right corner of the frame.
Also, I have my doubts about the frame line below the foot of the P. The imprimatur photo shows a weak spot (if not a break). The stamp appears to show a small double section.
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Edited by NSK - 03/29/2022 02:39 am
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