What Is This? Is It A #114 Or A #125

Gosh I would think that at some level of magnification you would be able to determine if the paper fibers had ever been stretched…
don

John Svensson, there appears to be no definitive outcome as yet from boygenius39.

I have two 114 stamps I stored until I decide to pay the price for professional verification of some kind. I have one highly remote possibility for a 114a or 125 and a second one that is even more remotely possible. I did check for pressed out grill with watermark fluid and no sign of a grill appeared on either of the two. I have another 114 that showed no grill but it appears with watermark fluid.

If someone else were to say "I have two no grill 114s, my response would probably be: "C'mon give me a break". Reason based upon the rarity of no grill says I am only dreaming and the watermark fluid test is not consistently dependable. If I were a wealthier man, I would purchase equipment to do some other preliminary checking myself.

However,I suppose that since I will be in the USA for nearly a month in January, I should consider the Bill Weiss certificate. It was pointed out that no experts will certify a used no grill 114 which, if true, Mr Weiss will not certify one and at best might say no grill detected.

OK, quignqt, I'll chime in--I've two #114s and one #113 that I can not detect a grill on with watermarking fluid nor with holding them at an oblique angle to a strong light source. I don't have a UV lamp to further check them. The chance of any of them being no-grill issues in pretty much non-existent. I know that No Grilled stamps of that issue will not be certified unless they are mint w/original gum. The experts are not going to put themselves in a position to judge whether a grill has been pressed out on a used issue. Not sure how the experts make the determination on used re-issues (#123-#132). Maybe some day I send them to Weiss for an opinion--probably after winning a lottery.

Al E Gator, I have done the exact same thing with strong light sources and have easily detected grills not otherwise visible. I have, and am, considered a Bill Weiss "verdict" since they are relatively inexpensive. My expectation if I do so is not: "woo hoo, I've got one" but rather to end once and for all my doubts. It seems to me that the most likely verdict would be a very weak grill that only caused curved points to the stamp and did not actually break the paper fibers. Such a stamp probably would not even need to be pressed after soaking.

Here's something I picked up some time ago. You can take some cheap aluminum foil, the thinner the better and place it over the back of the stamp and rub it with a finger. Then, you can look at the foil for any trace of a grill. I suppose you can do it to the front also.

To test it, you can do this on a grilled issue first to see how it looks. The smoother the surface under the stamp the better so you don't pick up anything under the stamp.

Most foil has a shiny side and a dull side. I forget which side should be up if any, but again you can test that too on a grilled one to see which shows up best.

The paper of re-issues looks much different than the paper of the regular issue; it is very white and much brighter and has a different weave. If you were to hold one of each up to the light next to each other the differences would be obvious.

What is up with needing to win a lottery. A Bill Weiss stamp ID costs $5.00
However, the mega lottery in the states is up to $427 million U.S. dollars today Friday Dec.13. Feeling lucky?

I can see traces of grill points in the photo of the back, so it is definitely not either a #114 no grill or an 1875 re-issue.

I will explain how expert services process such stamps. And let me begin by saying that 3c 1869 stamps with "no grill" are one of the most commonly-submitted stamps to expert sevices. But the odds of anyone truly getting a USED 3c 1869 without traces of a grill are probably 10,000 (or more) to one!

First, Scott does not generally recognize or list USED 1869 "no grill" stamps simply because it is rather easy I am told, to press out a grill leaving virtually no detectable trace of the grill, therefore, only unused stamps with OG are recognized (although I do recall that ONE copy of a used 3c 1869 no grill has been certified, although I do not know the circumstances surrounding the conclusion).

Therefore, the only possibility for a 3c 1869 "no grill" to be found genuine is if it is a genuine 1875 re-issue. And that stamp is nearly as rare (used) as the regular 1869 3c no grill (I believe about five (5) used copies have been certified. For an expert service to be willing to declare it a genuine used #125 it must;

1. Have no trace of a grill and;
2. Possess the bright/sharper color of the re-issue and;
3. Bear a cancellation that could have been used in 1875 or later, rather than when it was a current 1869-72 #114 usage.

To see the types of cancels that HAVE been certified, visit the website of Robert A. Siegel Auctions and use their search function AND the website of the Philatelic Foundation and use that search function.

Generally, the 1875 re-issues were only used by stamp dealers as postage since the Special Printing Program was intended to make the stamps available specifically with stamp collectors in mind, any collectors that bought them tended to save them, and not use them for postage. And most of the stamp dealer uses were on registered mail, therefore most existing genuinely used 1869 re-issues bear traces of the common oval registry-use cancels.

So, in conclusion, if all of the criteria are met, the stamp would have a good chance of being declared a genuine 1875 re-issue.

bill weiss.....hello.
Kevin LaFance here.....
glad to see you joined this forum!
Hope you are doing well!

Welcome Bill and thanks for chiming in on this post.

Hi Bill - Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the info

Hello Bill. There have not been any posts on this for two years and yesterday the forum was going wild. My example passes #1 & #2 but not quite sure about the cancellation. I checked out the Robert A. Siegel Auctions site and they have 15 different used 125's in various shades of color. Thanks for the tip.

Hi Bill welcome to the forum

I'm not familiar with the case either, but do ya wanna bet the stamp in question was tied to cover?

I would expect that to press out a grill so completely that it's presence could not be detected would require not only a rather light grill impression in the first place, but also that the stamp be soaking wet when the pressure is put on to "iron out" the grill. That way the paper fibers in the mesh are better able to realign and re-fuse if they had been stretched but not broken in the first place.

If there is anything to that, then an on-cover stamp showing no trace of a grill, even when lifted by the committee, would qualify for a cert, I would expect.

[Aside: Been a long time, Bill. I hope you and Addie are doing well. Now, which is the biggest kick: researching the material, running auctions, or expertizing? You would know.]

"If there is anything to that, then an on-cover stamp showing no trace of a grill, even when lifted by the committee, would qualify for a cert, I would expect".

Extremely doubtful at best.
In the first place, grills were not applied one sheet at a time, but several sheets at a time, so light grills are not at all unusual. In the second place, these stamps were usually grilled over the gum, which is why mint OG stamps are the only ones that get certified as without grill. Thirdly, it is impossible to know what might have happened to that hypothetical cover over the last 130 or so years, so there is no way that it would get a cert even if no grill was found when the stamp was lifted.