What Is This? Is It A #114 Or A #125

Did you guys see the 15 different used variations of #125's at Siegel auctions? They are listed as being the SCOTT 125 USED CENSUS. Two of the 125's are on covers one of which has not been seen since the 1956 Caspary sale. I did not find any examples of an Unused OG stamp on the site.

Phil,there are unused, original gum, part gum and no gum examples showing in the Siegel auction sight as well as used examples that have been auctioned. The census site is just for the used examples known. The used examples are quite rare. Do a power search and key in 125 in the catalogue number and it will show you the unused ones

For those who are members of the United States Philatelic Classic Society,there is an interesting article in the February 1987 Chronicle about ungrilled #114s by Scott R. Trepel. It can be accessed through the USPCS web site and a search of the data base on past issues. He says that there are known ungrilled #114s used at Brooklyn, Connecticut in 1870, mostly from the Lucius Fuller correspondences. He states there is a certified cover with a strip of three on gray paper. In the article, there is a rendering of the distinct cork cancel used. He also showed a pair and a single with the same cancel stated to be 114 without grill. He surmizes that there may be more than what is known now and not necessarily on gray paper. He also talks about the issue of getting certification on used 114s without grills which has pretty much been cover already. If any of you know Scott, perhaps you could invite him to join this thread and give some more information if he can?

Thank you very much to those who have welcomed me here, including several old and dear friends! I appreciate it.

I am obviously not as well versed on the number of certified USED #114 without grill as is Scott Trepel, who has probably hamdled more of these stamps than anyone now alive, except possibly for Walter Mader, who worked for Siegel for many years before forming his own public auction firms. But if I read those comments correctly, some of them (or most?) are the "gray paper" variety, which is not very rare and I have personally handled a number of them over the years, and certified a few. I have only ever certified one #125 with a cancel, but it was a very late and obviously non-contemporary purple cancel as I recall and I recall it had an old cert.from PSE as well. I've never seen a contemporarily-used #125. I've certified several unused #125s. over the years.

I personally would be very reluctant to certify a #114 without a grill even if lifted from a cover for the exact reasons stated by others. I wouldn't go so far as to say I would absolutely not do so, because it would greatly "depend" on several factors I would find (or not).

Thanks to someone who asked which career I've enjoyed more, that of running a pubic auction firm, that of a "student/collector" or that of an expertizer. What a tough question! All of them have plus and minus factors. Nothing beats the "paydays" of public auctions, but this hobby isn't always about the finances. I did greatly enjoy putting together successful auction sales and making sellers happy with the job we did. But I have also greatly enjoyed being a collector, writing and exhibiting too, and all of those can be very gratifying. But if pinned into a corner, I would say I have enjoyed expertizing the most. I get a lot of satisfaction knowing I've helped someone to identify and describe a stamp in detail so that he knows for sure what he has (or at least as far as my abilities can determine)! And at my age I am trying to give back to the community as much as my time allows, which is one big reason I xame to visit this forum at the suggestion of "Studebaker 51", who I also regard as a friend, and I was also invited months ago by someone else, but did not really have the time then.

I will try to visit as my time allows and contribute if I am able.

One feature I do not see (am I missing it?) is a feature which would automatically notify me by email of additional posts in a thread where I've posted. If it's here, I certainly would use it.......

Bill, hit "subscription" at the top of the page or "Topic Subscription" at the bottom of the page. Very pleased to have you on this forum.

I still wonder if there might be some technology available in other fields that could be applied to this use. Seems it would be worth the time and expense to develope. I'll bet 3 out of 5 collector's have a 114 used that doesn't readily show a grill. Most would be willing to spend some money to know for sure!
Well......I would anyway lol.

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That is the message I get when I click on "Topic Subscription" and there is no "Subscription" icon or link on the page that I can find. Further, since that message is indicating that I am subscribed to this topic, why then am I not receiving email notification of new posts or replies? I don't get it? Is there REALLY an email notification feature??

This message is in response to "stampcrow". Yes, there IS another possible way to ID an 1875 re-issue of an 1869 stamp, and that is by the paper mesh, but that method is *so* difficult that even most experts (including me....) can not use it! On the regular 1869 issue the mesh of the paper goes in one direction, as follows, which is the exact opposite on the re-issues;

1869 Issue low values (1c through 12c) Horizontal Mesh;
1869 Issue high values (24c through 90c) Vertical mesh;
1875 Re-issue low values - Vertical mesh;
1875 Re-Issue high values - Horizontal mesh.

So if you are talented enough to be able to see the paper mesh (I am not....) you can ID the regular and re-issues using these differences in paper mesh.

And of course, the reason the 15c value is not included is because it isn't necessary to examine for mesh or any other identification characteristic since there are three different easy-to-identify types of the 15c value and they can not be interchanged or confused so long as you clearly understand what they are.

Hello Bill, Phil Rimer here. Can you give me any direction as to how to identify an 1869 issue of against an 1875 re-issue regarding horizontal or vertical mesh or a possible counterfeit? I have a potential 1875 reissue with no grill but that remains to be determined by a well respected expert. I am not getting my hopes up on it after reading the cons on this thread but my stamp does not appear to be close to the 114's or original 1869. Since I do not have an 1875 re-issue to compare it closely to, I am suspecting my stamp to be a possible counterfeit. The stamp size is way too far off. I believe the paper to be grey but the size do not match to the numerous 114's I have compared it to.If you would like to look at some photos I will be happy to send it to you.

Hello Al, I want to thank you for your comment on this thread. I key worded unused 125's and did not get any result. I am sure it must be there so I will pursue finding the photos. I have found a couple of iron outs in 40 years of collecting but never one I could not detect until this one. I am really stumped after trying several suggestions by other collectors. By what I understand, Bill Weiss or Scott Trepel is my best chance to figure this out but I don't have any contact info.

Phil, Bill Weiss' expertising web site: www.stampexpertizing.com There is a "contact us" at the top right of the page which will take you to Bill's e-mail address and snail-mail address and phone number. To find the auction sales of #125s, used and unused, on siegels site: www.siegelauctions.com >power search >catalogue# >125, then hit search. Don't key in "unused 125" just 125. Try that an see if you don't get the auction results.

Bill, great stuff! thanks so much for responding.

Of COURSE there is. We wouldn't put the link there if there wasn't. The emails are being sent, maybe hotmail is blocking them or they're going to your spam folder.

First, I am now receiving email notification for new posts in this thread. Thanks "Bobby"!

"Hello Bill, Phil Rimer here. Can you give me any direction as to how to identify an 1869 issue of against an 1875 re-issue regarding horizontal or vertical mesh or a possible counterfeit? I have a potential 1875 reissue with no grill but that remains to be determined by a well respected expert. I am not getting my hopes up on it after reading the cons on this thread but my stamp does not appear to be close to the 114's or original 1869. Since I do not have an 1875 re-issue to compare it closely to, I am suspecting my stamp to be a possible counterfeit. The stamp size is way too far off. I believe the paper to be grey but the size do not match to the numerous 114's I have compared it to.If you would like to look at some photos I will be happy to send it to you";

Sorry, but photos won't do any good. I would need to see the actual stamp. My mailing and price info has been linked by someone else here if you wish to use my service on this item.

As an enthusiastic collector of 1869 pictorials, I must admit my embarassment at not knowing there was a type III 15c stamp. The copy of Scott I keep in my office (2004) does not illustrate the type III stamp and my usual source of visual aid, theswedishtiger.com, lists the 129 as a 'type II'.

Does anyone have a nice scan of a type III (Scott 129) they would be willing to post for me to add to my digital library?

Thanks!

Brian