France/French Colonies Imperf "Ceres" 25c Blue- I.d. Help!

I realize identifying the "Ceres" imperforated 25c blue can be difficult, and I could use some help!



The stamp on the left was in a "French Colonies" section of the album I picked up. That would make it a 1872 Scott 12 25c blue/bluish @ $13. (Maury does list a "dull blue" color for the 1871 perforated French equivalent, which might be more accurate)
But, frankly, how can one really tell it is a French colonies stamp?

I do have a Maury's French catalogue, but it doesn't cover the French colonies. (My French is marginal.) There is a faint postmark, but I can't read it. Maury does break down the 1871 perforated French equivalent issue (Scott 58) into three types. I don't know if the French Colonies imperforated follows suit.

The stamp on the right was sold by a dealer as a 1849 25c blue- Scott 6 (CV $40). The color (from Maury) I think is actually a dark blue.

So any help in identifying these stamps-or how to tell the difference between the issues- would be very much appreciated.

Looking at the cancel on the one on the right - it looks to start with a 3 which would suggest it is not of colony usage.

France Scott # 58 & 58a. 1871,
Yvert & Tellier #60 &60a, there are 2 more varities 60b & 60c, but yours are not those varities.

Can't be those, as they are perforated.

Really, the question I have is how does one determine the difference between the imperforate 25c "Ceres" French Colony (Scott 12,Maury ?) and the imperforate 1849 "Ceres" French issue (Scott 6, Maury 4).

In Michel: French- shading of the neck streaks (Hals-schatten in Strichen)
French colony- shading of the neck dots (Halsschatten in Punkten)

Wadmalatz- I think you are on definitely on the right track.

And thanks to Anthony UK for suggesting the cancel on the right hand stamp is not a colony cancel, and therefore probably a legitimate 1849 imperforate 25c "Ceres".

Lets take a closer look at Wadmalatz's notes.

But first, here is a 1870-71 Lithographed Bordeaux issue, with the heavy streaked neck lines on the right side.



1849 Typographed Scott 6 25c light blue/bluish "Ceres" (Actually probably a "dark blue" color variation noted in Maury)
1870-71 Scott 46 30c brown/yellowish "Ceres" (Bordeaux issue-lithographed)

I think we can agree that the heavy streaking in the neck characteristic of the Bordeaux issues is not what we are discussing.

Rather, look at the 1849 25c "neck": very blocky rectangular short lines without shading.

Don't mean to interrupt, but Scott's has a note about this issue that says "Nos. 54, 57 and 58 were reprinted imperf. in 1887."
Could this be they?

1849 Scott 3 20c black/yellowish
1849 Scott 6 25c light blue/bluish (probably "dark blue" as in Maury)

Note both examples have a very discrete blocky rectangular neck shading.

Now, lets look at the 1971 perforated French 25c & the 1872 imperforate French Colonies 25c....


1872 French colonies Scott 12 blue/bluish (probably "dull blue"-Maury)
1871 France Scott 58 blue/bluish perforated

Both issues should be similar, as the French colonies stamp was derived from the 1871 perforated issue.

Note the neck dots are not as blocky, there is some difference in the short line or dot in intensity as far as impression. Not a great difference, but looks real.

(Note: On review, it may not be "real" just a worn plate, so probably not enough to differentiate. )

I think the denomination lettering is smaller on the colony issue.
I would say these are both non-colony.

1872 French Colony Scott 12 25c blue/bluish (Probably "dull blue"-Maury)
1849 France Scott 6 25c (probably "dark blue" variation-Maury)

So.....
The neck in the 1849 French "Ceres" definitely looks blocky and discrete, while the 1872 French Colony Scott 12 shows a "shaded" neck long dots.

Then one can tell the difference between the imperforated French Colony stamp and the imperforated 1849 French stamp!

Whew!

Agree or disagree?

(Edit: on review, probably not enough to differentiate- may simple be a worn plate. )

Hi Jamesw

I'm not a French expert, I don't even play one on SCF.




But the Scott 58 reprint (Which is imperforate) or Maury 60 ( I believe the Maury numbers are the same as Y&T), is much more expensive according to Maury- 325 Euros mint. So doubtful.

Hi Anthony UK




Well of course you could be right, but then my French Colonial 25c stamp would be more valuable as a French issue stamp. ($13 to $40)

From Wikipedia about French Colony stamps issues...




I would think if it is as simple as denomination lettering being smaller on the French Colony stamp, it would not be so hard to identify. There should be examples out there that would clearly show the difference in size of lettering- so let's see them.

BTW, the stamps we are talking about that are very difficult to identify are listed here, with some following comments...


The similar imperforate stamps are:
1850 French Scott 1 10c bister/yellowish "Ceres" (shades exist) ($250+)
1871 French colony Scott 9 10c bister/yellowish "Ceres" ($120+)

1849 French Scott 4a 20c blue/bluish "Ceres" ($2000+)
1871 French colony Scott 11 20c blue/bluish "Ceres" ($120+)

1850 French Scott 6a 25c blue/bluish "Ceres" ($40)
1872 French colony Scott 12 25c blue/bluish ($10+)

1850 French Scott 7 40c orange/yellowish (Type I) "Ceres" ($450+)
1871 French colony Scott 14 40c orange/yellowish (Type I) "Ceres" ($10+)

1854 French Scott 13 5c green/greenish (Type II) "Napoleon III" ($85)
1972 French colony Scott 8 5c yellow green/greenish "Napoleon III" ($400+)

A couple of comments....
A) Note the French stamps are worth more except for the 5c "Napoleon III" French colony.
B) The difference in price means inadvertent or "on purpose" switching of stamps is a real possibility.
C) Obviously, identification of the postmark-location, date,- would be nice.
D) Scott gives no help; suggests getting an expert opinion.

When the description is blue/bluish, bluish here describes the paper.

Right.

Closeup of 1849 French Scott 6 25c "neck" imperf

Note the blocky solid rectangular lines...



Closeup of the 1872 "French Colonies" Scott 12 25c "neck" imperf

The neck long dots are messier, not so clean as seen in the '49.

Subtle, but real IMHO.

Agree or disagree?

(Edit: I'll have to disagree with myself. These are probably worn plate changes, and not enough to differentiate. )