France/French Colonies Imperf "Ceres" 25c Blue- I.d. Help!

Looking at the catalogue pics of of France shows the 'X's in the corners are complete 4 tear drops with a centered dot, but French Colonies seem to have on open center creating 4 tear drops without the centering dot in each box at each corner!

Reprints of France are likely!

This has been a most interseting 2 pages even though personally I
have no interest in classic stamps in general or French stamps
in particular.

Amazing what can be learned on this site from so many knowledgeable
collectors.

Thanks Jkjblue, warrehouse, Anthony and my Canadian neighbour James.

warrehouse, I would have to respectfully disagree.



1871 French Scott 58 Type I & Type III perforated

Here are (probably!) two of the three types of corner X-boxes as outlined by Maury. Look at the right upper X-box. Type I is as you see it, type III has some holes and globules making up the right and left upper arms of the "X", while Type II (not illustrated) has a breach of the left vertical wall of the box surrounding the upper right X. All three types have a center "dot" present in the middle of the "X".

Now the 1887 reprint (Imperforate) was based on Scott 58, and according to Maury was type I. The reprint, which was official, is much more expensive than any other imperforate choice, about 325 euros mint.

Here is the Type II corner break from Yvert, in the wall just to the left of the fleuron.




This is a bit academic for this topic, as Type II doesn't seem to fall into the French Colonies issues, which appear to be all I or III. Nevertheless, I figure it finishes off the thought.

The small- or big-number issue doesn't apply to the 25c, which are all small-number designs. As far as I can tell, the distinction is useful for i.d. of the 15c bister, which comes both ways.

Four out of Five of the possibly confusing stamp issues do not come with the big number/small number varieties..

Here is the "confusing" list again.....

The similar imperforate stamps are:
1850 French Scott 1 10c bister/yellowish "Ceres" (shades exist) ($250+)
1871 French colony Scott 9 10c bister/yellowish "Ceres" ($120+)
Note: 1871 French colony Scott 9 can be found in large number/small number varieties.

1849 French Scott 4a 20c blue/bluish "Ceres" ($2000+)
1871 French colony Scott 11 20c blue/bluish "Ceres" ($120+)

1850 French Scott 6a 25c blue/bluish "Ceres" ($40)
1872 French colony Scott 12 25c blue/bluish ($10+)

1850 French Scott 7 40c orange/yellowish (Type I) "Ceres" ($450+)
1871 French colony Scott 14 40c orange/yellowish (Type I) "Ceres" ($10+)

1854 French Scott 13 5c green/greenish (Type II) "Napoleon III" ($85)
1972 French colony Scott 8 5c yellow green/greenish "Napoleon III" ($400+)

The only one on the "confusing" list with the large number /small number variety is the 10c bister/yellowish. (Maury 54-gros chiffres, Maury 58-petits chriffes)

The 15c bister/yellowish that also has large number/small number varieties does not confuse, as the 1849 French imperforate 15c is green/greenish.

As stated, the 25c does not have this large number/small number variety.

I'm going to ask the question again.

Is there a way to differentiate the confusing same color French Colony imperforate issues from the French issues outlined above? I'm excluding of course postmarks that would give it away.

Scott states it is quite difficult, and suggests expert opinion. But even experts need some evidence to go on. So what is the evidence?

(I suggested neck dot shading differences, but I would want a person familiar with French classic issues to confirm that as an approach. )

Thanks for all the great discussion!

I would ignore Scott for France as there is not anywhere near the amount of detail.
The reason they are difficult is because they are basically the same.
As far as I'm aware the same plates were used but at a later date.
The two you show for neck shading are identical to me in that they do not show the expected differences.
I'm no expert though as you can see.
To guarantee colony usage you would at least need to indentify the cancel.

Thanks AnthonyUK

A voice of experience.

I don't have Yvert with me right now, but I was thinking that the 15c bister came in both big- and small-numbered varieties, for the Colonies. That is the i.d. assistance I was referring to. (If I'm recalling it correctly...I'll look again tonight, and follow up if I'm misremembering.)

The 15c bister/yellowish does have large number/small number varieties. Either variety though (If it is found imperforate, and presumably a French Colonies issue) would not get confused with the French 1849-50 15c imperforate - which is green.

AnthonyUK, if in fact the same plates were used for the perforated French 1871 "Ceres", and the imperforated 1872 French Colonies "Ceres" as the 1849-50 French "Ceres", then the only hope of identification would be a worn plate change. I guess that was what I was hoping for by looking at the neck dots for the issues.

But specifically for the 1871 and 1872 25c blue "Ceres", there were some changes in the corner fleurons: since it comes in three types. Presumably, if one could find a type III 25c blue "Ceres" imperforate, that would mark it as a probable French Colonial stamp, as the 1849 issue has not been reported with that type. So there is some hope.

It's been a fun discussion.

The reality is though there really aren't good ways to reliably differentiate the similar imperfs from each if the color and design are the same, and no postmark help- at least that is the conclusion I've been forced to confront.

If a French early classic collector does think there are ways to tell, I'm all ears.

I just joined this community due to this thread. Although I did not get the answer I was looking for in my search. I was pleased at the attitudes of everyone who posted and the general helpfulness exhibited. I hope that I can be as lucid and helpful if I get the opportunity.

Welcome notjustbooks, You will find the folks here to be friendly and helpful. The amount of philatelic knowledge is impressive and few questions are stumpers.

Hope you enjoy your stay here and jump right in. ---Ron

I found a nice site that might help regarding this issue - http://planchage.france-timbres.net/index.php