CTO Or Postally Used.

Hi all,

Recently I have been going through mounting some of the Brazil I have been accumulating. Been using lots of fluid to check watermarks of the different types and years. It has been a bit daunting but fun as well. Well anyway I have run into a bit of a quandary. I have duplicates of the same stamp that are either CTO or postally used. The question I have is which is more desirable to have in a collection CTO or postally used? Also having CTO has the added feature of gum on the back is there any advantage to leave the gum on or soak it off?

The general platitude is that commercially beats CTO into a cocked hat every time. But in fact it's not that simple. CTOs are generally nicely cancelled in a corner,clear of the main motif. If you are thinking of using the items in a Thematic display, of if you're just concerned about the appearance of a page, it pays to take that into consideration. A nice CTO can sometimes trump a rough bonk on the nose from a commercial handstamp. (But don't tell the others that I told you that or they'll all laugh at me.)

I do not disagree with Bamra1, and I am not going to laugh either if he does the same with me!
To me a stamp that is used is far better than a CTO. I can still hear my mentor talking about that, way back in the late 40's. "A stamp was meant to be put on a letter, cancelled and delivered, and that is how one should collect them". One of my collecting interests is used Switzerland, and it can be awfully difficult to find a true used copy of some items, especially souvenir sheets!

Peter

CTOs were created to provide collectors with used stamps with clean cancels and were extremely popular at one time. Used stamps in equally great condition are hard to find. Collecting trends have, of course, changed. CTOs have been out of vogue with intermediate and advanced collectors for years. Removing the gum from a CTO is a questionable practice because the presence of gum makes the CTO-ness obvious. But, then, many CTO cancels are press printed. But, then, gumless CTOs cannot become victims of WTS (wide tongue syndrome).

So then I think an order of preference it would be:

Mint
Postally Used
CTO

I do have some older Brazil CTO stamps from the 40's I think the gum has turned brown or turned the paper brown. Don't know for sure. But all these stamps are minimal value. I guess when Scott has it for minimal value they are taking into consideration the amount of CTO's available

I think for me just having a copy no matter what type if that was the only one available would be ok as well. I think that is the difference between collecting and accumulating.

CTOS can have the gum removed for one good reason. Most of the earlier stamps with CTO cancellation were on stamps with gum arabic and, if any of these are found in accumulations, and a lot of them were / are, then they do have the tendency to stick together because of humidity etc. I personally had to soak CTO stamps just for that reason. It was either that or throw them out.

One thing to remember is that 99% of the CTO cancellations you find will be the capital city of any given nation. Usually, they are neatly placed on the corner of the stamps. Some countries literally cancelled thousands upon thousands of sheets with these cancels. Some of these stamps were printed abroad and those stamps were never in the country of origin they were intended for. There are also some stamps with CTO cancels printed on them - so I have been told but cannot verify this.

For me personally, I do not like CTO cancels and prefer to get postally used examples. In fact, I would just as soon do w/o compared to buying a CTO.

Let's face it, the stamps with CTO cancels NEVER went through the postal system. They were cancelled for collectors only and it is nothing but gravy ($$$$) for the post office issuing entities.

My opinion of course.

Chimo

Bujutsu

vacuum man
Yes for Brazil identifying reprints by watermarks is a challenge and they are mostly low value stamps. It kept me busy for a loooong time. This thread remind me I once bought Zanzibar stamps with complete sets from the 60's and 70's. I felt I had a good deal until I realize some sets were CTO's. There is no values for them in Scott and consider very low in value, 20-30% of postally used. For a minimal value stamp it's not a great difference but otherwise it really depreciate the value of a collection.

Leeward Islands 1890 Scott 1 1/2p lilac & green

I would argue that postmark "Antigua" on a generic Leeward Islands stamp is several degrees more attractive than a mint copy.

And, on a general level, a nice genuine postmark is often much more interesting than the mint specimen.

But the market disagrees. The Leeward Islands 1/2p lilac & green is $3+ mint, and $1+ used in the Scott.

I had the opportunity to bid on a huge lot of Australia CTO's from 1960's to the end of 1980's. The res was really low and I will not touch them as they are all total trash to me.

The 1990's and I start to get interested in select issues that are hard to come by.

2000's on, and my bids are getting very serious indeed!

All stamps have their own story and have to be accessed for many things, one issue at a time. If there was a 1966 Navigator set CTO I would of went for it!

I do prefer the ones that are postally used over CTO, and if the postally used have a somewhat worse cancellation than the CTO one, I will choose the postally used.

It also depends on how serious I collect an area. For Norway for example, I aim to have only cancellations where I can make out both the date and post office, preferably a local one, but this is a long process and not something I must have done tomorrow. For countries I don't collect that seriously, CTO's fullfil my need for a used copy of a stamp just fine.

Thanks all for the input. I know that some CTO's that a country prints are just for the collector. In fact I think that some countries just print up a set of stamps strictly for the collector and then may have a different set for the regular mail.

At least the earlier Brazil seems to be the same stamp used for postage. If I search around enough for them I can find some that are postally used.

I agree that the CTO's I don't want to collect are the ones that are printed just for the collector market and in great quantities.

Great discussion!
I'm not really a collector of CTOs & prefer PO cancelled. I am in a quandry, however, as mentioned in one of the posts, CTOs do often stick together. So, I really am very tempted to soak all gum off of any CTOs I have before I put them in my albums.
Any more thoughts?
Will I commit a grievous sin if I just soak first & place later?

Kathey I would say its a venial sin at most...i would not lose any sleep over it ! signed, one who has sinned..but there were no witnesses !

I do prefer used to CTO and also mint. For me, mint means a stamp that has been coddled and never fulfilled its intended purpose. With used, the stamp has done it's duty and with odds against it might remain sound and nicely cancelled. Also, when cancels are legible they add an element of interest no mint stamp can ever offer. And despite the greater difficulty for finding nicely used stamps... in many cases they can be had for a small fraction of the cost of a mint example. I am talking post 1930 material. Not holding anything against mint stamps, but these are probably the two key reasons there is a good market for used stamps (though less demand means lower catalog prices despite the supply differences).

CTO are commonly offered in beginner packets, and without them there would probably be far fewer collectors today. They serve a great purpose!

Well, what about some of the former communist countries (USSR, Poland, DDR. etc)? For collectors of those, there isn't much of a choice. I've gotten postally used DDR and Soviet material in kiloware but the majority of my collection from these countries is either MNH or CTO.

Jkjblue - I could not agree more!

Regarding modern CTO - my attitude is to consider them only like spacefillers until used or mint copies is available. I would even prefer a slightly damaged stamp in favour of CTO stamps.

Naturally there are exemptions.... E.g the classic french colonies produced lots of nice cancels actually being CTO. However for many of these stamps the postally used copies are also in high supply, hence I will not necessarily consider the postally used in favour of CTO, as the CTO is often more rare.

Mongolian stamps serves as an example of the opposite. I have tons of CTO stamps from this area, only some in mint condition but almost no postally used copies. In this case the postally used would naturally be much more valuable for me, even if damaged!

In short it's about relativity. Humans often have a liking for the stuff in short supply....