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 Replies: 86 / Views: 9,468 |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1179 Posts |
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tonymacg, Quote:
"However, are you seriously suggesting that catalogue values have the status of gospel truth?" That wasn't me… Sorry, I never said that; never inferred or implied that; quite the opposite -- that has been my point. I have simply been trying have everyone take off their rose-colored glasses about prices and pricing and understand how real-world business functions, especially in vertical operations; which, if you had any business acumen, you would have understood from the beginning -- and business functions the same way down-under as it does in the States. You admit you know nothing about SCOTT® (and probably nothing of the others mentioned at the beginning) and I doubt IF you have ANY understanding of the HISTORY behind any of the stamp catalogues and how dealer/publisher catalogues functioned, starting over 100 years ago. That It is clearly demonstrated by your comments, as you either failed to read, or failed to comprehend my remarks. Unfortunately, your knowledge and understanding is limited only by the naiveté of your remarks; for you, ignorance must be truly bliss. So, please excuse me while I ride-off on my hobby horse. Hal |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
6430 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
56 Posts |
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Quote:
Some just fill spaces in a album I wouldn't even try to fill it with top dollar prices, from the looks of things on ebay and my lack of knowledge, I'd be a fool to try. I am lucky if I notice there are different perfs on the same stamp let alone find the difference in color, type, paper, etc. You got to give us a break, we all start someplace. |
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| Edited by Joe - 03/15/2015 9:59 pm |
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3547 Posts |
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Hal, you make the most breath-taking assumptions and then proceed to abuse me on their basis. That is not only foolish, it is extremely rude. Let me put you in the picture. I've been collecting for 60-odd years. I worked in (vertically-integrated) mining and computer companies for nearly 20 years, and I've been running my own business for 25 years. I don't need you to tell me (or I suspect a large number of other readers here) how a business functions. Now, on the matter of catalogue pricing being taken as gospel, let me quote back your own words to you: Quote:
Within the pages of the GRAKK STAMP(™)© catalog I have listed (for this argument), 100,000+ listings. As an entrepreneur, I (BIG$$$-STAMP(™)©) look at the 100,000 listings and say what should these items be priced at, setting the highest price possible, to make the most money. (Remember, the catalog is a benchmark for buying (LOW) and the asking price for selling (HIGH). I can always negotiate back; I can never negotiate forward. I don't care if customers complain about the price in the GRAKK(™)©2015 catalog. I peg the most recognizable items "at market price ++", stating it's for "premium quality" merchandise. I know collectors will complain, however, they will be the first to bring me their best stamps when they want to sell! Collectors' are willing to pay a premium price to buy the premium stamps.
Let's say my BIG$$$-STAMP(™)© retail operation sells 1,000,000 average, non-premium stamps per year worldwide. Lets say my average stamp-sale-per-item is $1 or 1 EURO per year. I want to make more money. What's the easiest way to do it? I raise my GRAKK©catalog prices 10% across each stamp, I automatically increase my $$ or EURO SALE by 100,000+/yr. without doing a thing. And when new issue comes out; I can set any price I want to. WHY? I have a card up my sleeve.
Before I tell you what the card is…as a "publisher" and "sales company", I am also going to print a "GRAKK(™)©2015 Stamp Album" for collectors to place their stamp purchases into, with New Issue release pages yearly. I will control what I print on the pages, based on what I want to stock and sell and what is available to me from various New Stamp Distribution sources. I know stamp collectors are going to buy from me, no matter, what, because I rely on a collectors' motivation to buy … their base psychological desires of: PAIN, FEAR, ENVY, GREED, LUST AND SLOTH. Now here's my card…
I have a third company--a distribution company. This third company holds solo stamp distribution rights for new issues for every island nation and sand drenched-land, locked principality within my GRAKK©-catalog's specialty domain. I set opening "new list prices" for everyone out there -- to all dealers. So a stamp that costs $0.0125 each to produce, I sell at, let's say, $0.25 for a low value and $5.00 for a hi-value. Stamp Dealers are going to sell at my established "Suggested List Price." WHY? Because Dealers are also motivated by "PAIN, FEAR, ENVY, GREED, LUST and SLOTH." Perhaps it's due to your own difficulties with the English language, but I read that is underlining my argument. And finally, yes: I don't know the three catalogues mentioned at the beginning; Scott is laughable on the stamps I collect. Are you suggesting, then, that only collectors conversant with all three volumes should contribute to this debate? If so, I'll gladly withdraw from any further discussion of the subject - with you. |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1179 Posts |
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tonymacg And you failed to read the first part of my post; what your quoting is a continuation of the first post to elaborate on what I was stating. You quote Quote:
you make the most breath-taking assumptions … is SO OUT OF CONTEXT -- why, again you need to link BOTH parts together . The part you are quoting was a vain attempt to disguise real life stamp catalog pricing knowledge WITHOUT divulging client names, to demonstrate to SCF readers what really happens. But everyone gets hung-up on the little things and take what I'm saying in 20 different directions - I'm trying to have everyone see the big picture. I'm not divulging names. I'm not going to trade resume's; other than to say I also have a very successful business background; owning multiple profitable retail businesses. I have a retail/wholesale stamp background and I have a 25+ year catalog management & marketing background. I've had full line-item p&l pricing responsibility for 250,000+catalog SKU's, plus management of 11 Private Label Brands (that I designed, sourced & contract-manufactured internationally and 6 Re-Brands under a major brand umbrella). NOWHERE in the entire post do I say or infer Quote:
...catalogue pricing (should be) being taken as gospel -- That was some else's remark. PLEASE, stop attributing that remark to me. My feeling is "No, it should never be." Quote:
Are you suggesting, then, that only collectors conversant with all three volumes should contribute to this debate? NO! NO! NO! Please, re-read ALL the parts that I wrote. I'm sure then you'll be able to connect the dots and understand what I was driving at. And whether your right or wrong, you're not understanding what I've said from the beginning --- discussion ended between us long ago with the uncalled for hobby-horse comment. |
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
3547 Posts |
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And, Hal, since you appear to be unable to understand my, I thought, fairly plain English, but you continue to be offensive, I can't see that there's any point in continuing this conversation. |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1096 Posts |
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I think the question about stamp "Catalog" value establishment has been aptly addressed by some members - based on Dealer pricing input, auction and some other reference points (of course there may be some level and instances of manipulation, as always caveat emptor) - but NOT based on ebay sales results (a bit of a simplification, but I believe captures the gist). I am a seller on ebay, and agree that generally the stamp sales prices are below dealer and brick/mortar auction houses. There are at least a few (and I'm sure there are more) reasons for this: (1) can't personally touch/view, so question quality, (2) anyone can sell, so not limited to known dealers (trust/quality), (3) well-known that many items may be mis-described or mis-represented Sadly, for the honest sellers that do their best to describe and price items reasonably, or sell at unreserved auction, it affects their sales results. Over the long run, buyers start to recognize the better sellers, but it takes time, and the buyers are the ones that haven't given up after (1)-(3) above. Yes, anyone can/will find great deals on ebay - but shouldn't conclude that stamp valuation (lower) is reasonably represented by ebay results. On another sub-thread, some have expressed strong opinions that one shouldn't pay more than a set percentage of catalog value for stamps. I strongly disagree with this sentiment (as have some others who have chimed in). I sell stamps and covers that vary greatly in quality (from Gems down to faulty items), and the pricing will vary between a few % of CV (much less than 10%) up to 1000% or more of CV depending upon the item specifics such as condition, centering, cancels and other factors. Some scarcer (and/or popular) items, with exceptional quality DO command much higher premiums, and this IS ALSO TRUE on ebay. I also echo the opinion that great quality holds value much better than lesser quality. -dave |
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| Edited by orstampman - 03/16/2015 9:46 pm |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2055 Posts |
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Catalog values are more or less the MSRP of the hobby, and much like in other retail, few people buy or sell at full MSRP. If all the conditions for catalog values are met (VF centering, fault free, lightly cancelled if used, one stamp purchased only, etc), cat values aren't all that out of line. Sure, 50% off can still be realistic even in those cases, but we'd still be talking about a $200CV stamp selling for $100. We're not talking about a $200CV stamp selling for $3.75. It's just a point of reference, but it's a pretty darn useful one. I don't look at CV's and think that's what a stamp is going to cost me, but it does give me a good idea. Without a catalog I'd have absolutely no clue in many cases. |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
8399 Posts |
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IF YOU ASK ME .....and nobody did Years ago the major catalogs would follow the ads and offers published in the major philatelic newspapers and magazines .They would include the price list that dealers would mail out to customers. All this information would be accumulated over a year or two and sometimes longer if no changes where taking place .Then a discussion with other stamp dealers would be considered into a final determination of the new prices before the catalog section was updated . The problem now comes that there are less stamp dealers to talk too who handle individual stamps and even less advertising going on in the philatelic newspapers with almost a complete lack of pricelist being offered ,the question now is where do catalogs get prices for everything that doesn't meet the minimum of a auction lot . With no way to determine prices the stamp catalog are now between a rock and a hard place to figure out any future price estimate .My guess is the catalogs will tell ebay and other sell sites since your using our numbering systems then we should have a free access to the information of final prices realized for free . |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1179 Posts |
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Quote:
Years ago the major catalogs would follow the ads and offers published in the major philatelic newspapers and magazines .They would include the price list that dealers would mail out to customers. All this information would be accumulated over a year or two and sometimes longer if no changes where taking place .Then a discussion with other stamp dealers would be considered into a final determination of the new prices before the catalog section was updated THANK YOU FLOORTRADER… That is what I was saying (and know as fact) which was/is how stamp prices are manipulated in catalogs and catalogs with vertical ops (which I participated-in, and am (stamp-wise) long retired from). I apologize to all, for what seemed "long winded" and may, to some, have sounded wrong. Hal |
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| Edited by Hal - 03/17/2015 4:21 pm |
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Valued Member
United States
447 Posts |
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Thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this subject!
When I posted this query, I did not expect heated fireworks among some responders.
Nor did I suspect so much historical background would be wisely shared.
My own observations of the pricing of stamps most closely aligns with ArtfulHinger, orstampman, and the others who see the "Big Three" catalogue publishers as opinion leaders providing "Suggested Retail Prices". Let's face it, in reality, the "market" is always what one can command from a willing buyer.
Collectors require some sort of defined "guidelines" but it's clear nearly all of us buy and sell most of the time below those guidelines. My guess is that online auctions have made access to stamps far easier for folks who collect (can't beat 24/7/365 + global). However, at the same time we are likely seeing a shrinking pool of buyers -- online or otherwise. I have no data to support this, but the observations of experienced ebayers points to this trend.
As indicated, some rare in demand items of exceptional quality are seen as a prized possession and these few may eclipse CV pricing if placed properly in front of a large enough buyer pool. But the key fact is that in the current market most collectors would be hard pressed to turn a profit on a short-term sale. It appears to be difficult if not nearly impossible to sell entire collections for anything close to 50% of CV. Not that most of us collect with the intent to "flip" our collections.
If we hope to entice younger folks to take up stamp collecting, we should expect some will compare the stamp market to say, the escalating valuations in sports memorabilia and older comic books where appreciation is appealing. |
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Replies: 86 / Views: 9,468 |
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Posted 03/15/2015 9:20 pm
