Water Marks

I'm having a real difficulty in seeing water marks on certain stamps. I collect Windward island and Barbados. It's the Barbados stamps that give me the most difficulty. I just can't see them. I use the black tray with lighter fluid. Is water mark fluid better? What can I do to identify the water marks. Thanks

Welcome to the forum AvroArrow!
Watermarks are exciting - but can also be a pain in the a...
I have never tried lighter fluid, so I cannot give you a comparison with watermark fluid.
However in general the better option for finding watermarks tend to vary from stamp to stamp, depending on color, paper, hinge remnants etc. For some stamps liquid is the best option, but normally I think an elecric watermark detector (e.g 'Signoscope' by Safe) is the best option - downside is that this is a small investment in itself. There are also other solutions, like 'Morley Bright Inst-a-Tector'. Each works differently and have their strengths and weak sides. Sometimes it's even best to simply observe the stamp on a black surface with proper illumination, only relying on your own eyes. Hope this was to some help, good luck!

I've found no difference in watermark detector fluid and Ronsonol in displaying a difficult watermark. I prefer Ronsonol. I've never used a Signoscope, but the Morely Bright detector has limitations. Yellow and orange stamps seem to be the hardest to detect.

Yepp, normally the yellow and orange is quite difficult with the fluid - much easier with the Signoscope T2, for which the color of the face of the stamps has not much significance. The minus with the Signoscope is that any remnants on the back of the stamps should all be more or less removed in order to get an equal pressure on the entire surface (meaning the stamp must be soaked to remove hinge remnants etc), still I appreciate my Signoscope as a tool I could not manage without. You do not need to worry about running empty of fluid, it's easier to check watermark when only checking a few stamps as you do not need to pour and later recover the liquid - and the 'electric' display of the watermark enables you to study it thoroughly without worrying of health effects from any vapour...

I think it a bit unhelpful to steer AvroArrow toward electronics. Detecting watermarks in fluid has worked for a looooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggg time.

Now some countries tend to have harder-to-detect watermarks than others. USA watermarks can be hard to find, even for the experts. Most British Commonwealth classic stamp (pre-1940) watermarks are relatively easy to find, often visible without fluid when the stamp is held against a black background.

Are the stamps you have trouble with covered with hinges or hinge-stains or any other kind of obstruction? That can make a difference. Make sure the stamp is completely "stuck" to the bottom of the tray by the fluid, that is, make sure the fluid has driven out all air bubbles, so that that the stamp lies flat against the bottom. If necessary press on the stamp in the fluid to make sure all air/space between it and the tray bottom has been eliminated. Tilt the tray different directions to try to pick up some slight variant in the light reflecting off of the stamps in the fluid.

Special watermark fluid and Ronsonol are fully equivalent as far as ability to detect watermarks is concerned. Plain water would work just as well but the stamp takes longer to dry, so that's why we use other fluids. For the most part, it's not the content of the fluid so much as promoting tight contact against the black surface that matters. (As allways, I'm sure there are some exceptions. But we are concerned with the rule, not the exceptions, here.)

The very best thing would be to find an experienced collector to sit down with you and go over a pile of stamps. Is there a stamp club in your area? Perhaps other SCF members have suggestions on how to "connect" with an experienced collector. Check the American Philatelic website for lists of stamp shows to see if one is coming to your area. If you have any bricks-and-mortar dealers within driving range, make a visit--any dealer worth his salt would be glad to help you.

Yes, AvroArrow could run out and pay through the nose for a Signoscope. But if it's an issue of training his eye and gaining skill in spotting watermarks and he's having trouble seeing them in fluid, for his own sake it's better for him to persevere in that until he starts seeing them for himself.

Keep at it and you'll "get it" eventually.

Hieronymus - I absolutely agree with you that water fluid is in general working fine, in most cases anyway. I was just trying to give alternatives for the cases when the fluid proves insufficient, which I guess we have all experienced from time to time - and which also appeared for me to be the challenge in this case. Being unhelpful was certainly not my intention, quite the opposite.

btw - the Signoscope is not electronic - it's a very simple electric device based on a good old-fashioned light-bulb.

I use my old 'Philatector' that I bought in London back in the late 1960's. It uses a light source as well along with integral and additional external color filters. These can occasionally be found on ebay and are fairly inexpensive compared to the Signascope.
I always keep Ronsonol on hand as a back-up, but the Philatector has done a fine job for me, and like you said, no mess, no fumes, easily portable...

I think Blaamand's first post is the best explanation of options for detecting watermarks. The GB Wildings drive me crazy - don't understand how they could put those patterns in the screens and have the watermarks so difficult to discern in the paper.

Let me guess your having problems with two British Crown Agent watermarks ,they are listed in Scotts as wmk 314 and wmk 373 .These are the St Edward's Crown and C A Multiple and the ca and crown on a diagonal slant.This wmk 373 is very difficult to see and is faintly visible .---------Your best chance is to have stamps of both watermarks because there is a slight difference in the front ink colors of the stamp.......let me know if you need to see a example of ink difference due to the two different paper used .

...and naturally there is also the option to use the scanner and photo-software to enhance watermarks from stamps, but then it starts getting a bit more complicated.

bookbndrbob - thanks!

Okay, so I was raising a caution about sending him to expensive devices, whether electric or electronic. But I think I did misread AvroArrow's original post--he generally has success with fluid and did not need my general instructions but needed Floortrader's advice about specific British Empire wmks.

And of course, as a long-term investment, the Signoscope is fine. I just interpreted the OP as a relative neophyte asking in general how to detect wmks. That was a misreading. My apologies.

Hieronymus - absolutely no worries! I also considered not to suggest the signoscope as it would involve a somewhat large investment, which I was not happy with suggesting in the first place - but it occured to me that was my best advise in this case.
Anyway, Floortraders piece of advice/assistance on these specific stamps are probably better.

btw - speaking of wmk's and signoscope - have anybody any experience that a scanner (negative scanning) can detect watermarks that cannot be detected with a signoscope? Hope this question can be raised in this thread...

Thanks floortrader!

Hi AvroArrow & Big Good To Have You On Board.

Always Happy Stamping! KGV

Welcome aboard to the forum AvroArrow

Some watermarks from the different countries can be a real problem. Unless you have a large number of stamps from any particular country where a watermark can mean the difference of a few cents to big dollars, then it is worthwhile checking them out.

In my personal experience, some of the watermarks have been so problematic for me that I just put them into a bin to go for 10 cents apiece. I know that there aren't any worth big bucks to worry about anyway. Some of mine were the difference of being either 25 cents for one watermark compared to a couple of dollars for another and the watermarks were not clear. so, they went into the bin. If it was the difference of 25 cents and big bucks, then yes, I would be checking them more closely.

Chimo

Bujutsu

How about MNH stamps using a liquid to find watermark. Doesn't the liquid ruin the MNH condition?