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Old French Letter 1703 Help Needed

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Pillar Of The Community

Australia
1042 Posts
Posted 07/22/2015   10:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add duncanvr to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Can anyone tell me where in France this was written and sent to? Also any names on it and if anyone can tell me if any of the content is interesting, maybe a summary translation in English that would be great. Thanks for the help







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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2423 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   11:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
And I thought my handwriting was bad!

I'm afraid I can't get very far with this at all, though I was only able to click and magnify the first image.

What is the background of this letter? I see there is recent printing on the letter that may give a clue. St. Sernin is a basilica in Toulouse.
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Pillar Of The Community
Germany
1714 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   1:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scotzm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Possibly someone with the surname "Gernardiere"
"ala (at) Bernardiere" which is a place name (La Bernardiere)
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United States
7239 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   3:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Lovely ink and paper!
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
526 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   4:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hieronymus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

dehors de la Gernardieris
a la Bernarduris

the final horizontal with a loop back over it and tail through it, in Latin manuscripts usually meant a declension ending in -is (often genitive). I don't know how it was used in 17thc French. But this is just to say that, though it looks like an e to us, it may be something quite different, an abbreviation rather than a single letter. THen again it might not.
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Edited by Hieronymus - 07/23/2015 4:06 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1042 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   5:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add duncanvr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If its St. Sernin basilica Toulouse wikipedia says its a church, I wonder if its a church letter?

I wonder what dehors de la Gernardieris a la Bernarduris reads in English?

What is a letter like this one worth?

Thanks for the help thus far

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
2423 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   6:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I hoped you would have more background. For instance, are you assuming the letter is from 1703? This number follows the word "nobrel," a word I'm not familiar with.

The King of Siam would called this a 'puzzlement.'
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1042 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   6:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add duncanvr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I felt that says 29th November 1703 that's why I think its 1703, another clue is the style of the writing is very old. This letter folds in a real small shape width 7.5 cm X 5 cm height and when folded looks like an envelope. I haven't any background on this one just that it was given to me as 1703. Is any of the French in the letter translatable?
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United States
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Posted 07/23/2015   6:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hieronymus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
nobre -- abbreviation for novembre

addressed to Monsieur Doivraud
or rather Doirvaud
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Edited by Hieronymus - 07/23/2015 6:44 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
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Posted 07/23/2015   8:21 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hieronymus, splendid! I never considered my imagined 'l' to be simply an extension of the 'e.'
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1042 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   8:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add duncanvr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I wonder if anyone can find any infos on Mr Doirvaud around 1703? So we now have thanks to all helping

Monsieur Doirvaud
dehors de la Gernardieris
a la Bernarduris

Letter must be from St. Sernin basilica in Toulouse? I don't know why the pencil note de St. Sernin

Great help guys I hope we can find more info
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Edited by duncanvr - 07/23/2015 8:28 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2423 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   9:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add KGB to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
duncan, if you'd like, send me higher quality scans of the letter and I'll see what I can make out. This handwriting, however, is atrocious. (Well, I've seen much worse.) You might be best off finding a Francophone stamp site and inquiring there.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1042 Posts
Posted 07/23/2015   9:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add duncanvr to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi KGB pleass message me your email add and I'll send you higher res pics, thanks for the offer to look at the letter
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
526 Posts
Posted 07/24/2015   06:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Hieronymus to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Please keep in mind that I was just pointing out what the squiggle at the end can mean in Latin manuscripts. I was not saying that it has to be read as -ris

I was just making the point that not all squiggles are letters. People who used to write everything by hand employed a lot of abbreviations. One has to know the meaning of the abbreviations to decipher manuscripts.
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Pillar Of The Community
Australia
1251 Posts
Posted 07/25/2015   07:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Horamkhet to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It certainly looks interesting,
I would love to see a full translation.

Begins with the usual, " I have the honour of"

Horamakhet
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Germany
1714 Posts
Posted 07/25/2015   3:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add scotzm to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It certainly is difficult to read. The "danger" is seeing things that are not there... I see no Latin, for instance, but that is only my interpretation.
Another aspect is already we are modernizing the script... for instance "a la" as two words as in modern language. With old manuscripts they wrote, as has this writer, "ala" as one word and it meant simply "at" as in "at that place" whereas "a la" is a totally different thing meaning "in the manner/ mode of". You wont find it in any modern dictionary.
Horamkhet has the start by the looks of it. The end reads, despite the spelling mistake... "le tres humble et tres ob(intentional squiggle by writer as it is shorthand for "obeissant") Serviteuer"
A churchman would probably have used "devoue" instead of "obeissant"
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