Sieger Experts In The House?

viking, you would have to show me examples to convince me, at least in terms of the early flights.

Very early flights could be a different story, but I'm focused more on the later zeppelin mail history at the moment. 1936-1938.

The LZ-129 29.3.36 with 'on board' cancel I included in my initial post is a good example. Or the LZ-129 23.3.36 (first mail flight). In the span of a few weeks I've seen three or four identical of the 29.3.36 on ebay, and all by the same German dealer, Sieger. I've seen many, many examples, some of them identical examples, of the same Sieger catalog # for the 23.3.36 with 'on board' cancels. They usually have multiple colorful stamps, and well placed dark cancels compared to the rather plain looking covers posted from city. The 'on board' covers also sometimes feature a notation by the cover maker that instructs to post on board. I even noticed one that said "105 of these" in pencil. Clearly the 'on board' posting was more popular with collectors and dealers even back then. By contrast covers posted in a city, or even Friedrickshafen tend to look more plain and 'run of the mill', usually featuring the same two zeppelin stamps, one green & one blue; or one of either.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not 'knocking' contrivance. Some of them are quite specular and I really like them. This is my favorite for the 23.3.36 so far. It even has the dealer's name stamped on the front, which features a nice photo of LZ13 (Hansa).

I found a fantastic article that describes zeppelin mail as "Gloriously Philatelic", amd I think that fits nicely.

http://www.ezep.de/article/2013sp_g...ilately.html

This is a very nice and very collectable example of the Hindenburg trial flight, AAMC # Z-400.

The pencil notation "105 of these" in pencil would not be the number of these that were carried overall, nor the number that received the on board cancellation. By this point in time the number of cards and letters that were being sent was massive, including the number with on board cancellations as the big dealers had by then made arrangements for most or all of their cards and covers to be cancelled on board. My guess is that the 105 of these notation might refer to the number of cards of this particular design (with the photo of the LZ 13) that were prepared by this one particular dealer who would have prepared a large quantity of cards and letters of many designs to be sent along with all of the other mail from other dealers and collectors on this flight. The card shown is very nice in terms of the colorful stamps and nice clear dark on board cancels which add to its value. On the other hand, the use of the photo card of the LZ 13 detracts from the value since that is not the Zeppelin on which the card was flown. Also, the use of the older regular airmail stamps is colorful but would detract from the commercial value of this card since it does not have the new German Zeppelin stamps (Scott catalog numbers C58 and C59) that were issued on March 16, 1936 and feature the image of the LZ-129 Hindenburg. The cards that have the added commercial value are the ones with nice clear on board cancels like yours, but that are on the new Zeppelin stamps (Scott catalog C58 and C59) and that feature a photo of the actual Zeppelin on which the card was flown - the LZ-129 in this case.

Thanks Kimo. That is one of my goals to find a nice one with the LZ-129 card and stamps; with nicer stamps if possible as well. Those zep stamps used sulfuric acid in the gum, so many of them have darkened terribly and caused the card/cover to stain badly as well. Its made it even a harder chore to find nice examples. Its actually another reason I purposely purchased the card above... just to have an example without the sulfuric acid laden stamps.

You can really see it in the two stamps below... but actually the zep stamp on this cover has survived fairly well compared to many others.

I received this in the mail today. Its a zep letter that travelled on the Hindenburg's first trip across the Atlantic to North America.

I already am aware that there was tons of mail on this flight and most covers from this flight are probably some of the least valuable among zep mail. I think most are probably in the $20-40 range.

At first glance it doesn't seem like anything too special, but I love it. It has Friedrickshafen cancels with both zep stamps, and the stamps aren't in bad condition. But the thing I love most is that the letter was headed to Canada, where I live. Also, it was being sent c\o the 'Robert Simpson Company Ltd' in Toronto, Canada, a famous Canadian department & catalog store that became 'Simpson Sears'.

A couple of questions... I noticed that there aren't many zep letters around addressed to Canada, and the ones available seem pretty pricy. Do an uncommon origin or destination increase the value of zep mail?

Also, there's definitely something inside the envelope, but the envelope has never been opened. Was it common to include something inside the cover, a card etc, when sending zep mail as a souvenir? Or is it more likely correspondence of some sort?

Can anyone hazard a guess as to a realistic value, considering the Canadian destination and the well known company name/address?

Incidentally, when I first saw this piece, it occurred to me that the 'Robert Simpson Company Ltd' (Simpson Sears) was a huge catalog company in Canada, and it got me thinking... I wonder if companies like this one could possibly have tried to profit from the popularity of the zep mail, or if perhaps they were interested in it because of the possibility of being able to ship more quickly certain items sourced from Europe.

The going prices for cards and covers for this flight in really nice condition such as yours is between $8 and $18 depending on the stamps used and how attractively they are arranged. Ones in lesser condition to yours go for proportionately lower amounts. If you are patient and are willing to wait for just the right one to come along on ebay and take a couple of weeks to find it you should be able to get as many of these as you like in the $10 to $12 range.

The final destination of Zeppelin covers is not very meaningful when it comes to values, though specialized collectors from those countries might be willing to pay slightly above the full value. Once the Zeppelin has arrived at a particular destination and off loads the mail, there is no further relationship between the Zeppelin flight and the card or letter going by ordinary mail to its final destination.

What brings the big money are covers that are FROM other countries than the one where the flight originated and that were officially ACCEPTED by the post offices of those other countries who sent them in their mail streams to the country where the Zeppelin flight was originating and that were then flown on the Zeppelin. These "Acceptance covers" bear the postage stamps and cancels of that other country and not those of the country in which the Zeppelin flight is originating and are seen as being part of the overall trip of the flight. Such "Acceptance covers" can range from $50 for the more common ones to many hundreds of dollars for the more rarely seen ones. Also, the number of serious collectors of the particular sending country affects values as well. For example, covers from British Commonwealth countries tend to bring relatively higher prices than ones from less collected countries since such covers are competed for by both Zeppelin collectors as well as collectors of that particular country. Here is an example of a Canadian dispatch "acceptance cover"

One more thing to be aware of as you are getting started collecting Zeppelin covers. There are fakes and forgeries out there and the more valuable the cover, the more fakes and forgeries of that flight cover are likely. However, even the common ones have been faked so you need to really learn the small details of each flight and each cancel and each cachet. You also need to learn the postage rates for being carried so if you see a card or cover that has too little postage or even too much postage you need to get out your magnifying glass and prove to yourself that the cover is genuine. For example, if you saw this common Zeppelin cover for sale at a real steal of a price, would you buy it? If you said yes, then you would have thrown away your money since it is a fake from a well known forger. A German dealer named Julius Bock made a lot of these in 1938 so it has the right amount of age to it, except it never came anywhere near a Zeppelin. Here is a close up of the postmark of an original and authentic Zeppelin cover on this flight next to the postmark that was fabricated by Julius Bock that he used to make his fakes. As you can see the differences are slight but they are there if you know exactly what to look for. If you give up on figuring which is the real official German postmark that is on the real Zeppelin flight covers and which is Julius Bock's forged cancel, the forgery is the one on the right. There are many tiny differences, but the biggest one and the easy way to tell is to look at the letter M in NORAMERICA. Look at how far down the point in the center the M comes. In the real one that point goes all the way down to be even with the lines on the front and back strokes of the letter - the point in the middle of the M in the fake only goes half-way down. A second red flag on this forgery is the amount of postage that was used. The total amount is .55 Rpf. This was not the correct rate for printed matter on this flight. My point is that forgeries of Zeppelin covers have been in production by crooks ever since the days that the Zeppelins were flying since Zeppelin flight covers have been avidly collected ever since then, and they have always commanded relatively full prices. The forgers often use real postage, though some with the high value overprinted Zeppelin stamps have been manufactured out of the less valuable regular stamps with added fake overprints. Learning everything you can about Zeppelin flight covers and getting the reference materials and really studying them is crucial. It is easy to be taken if you are overly eager to buy and if you are thinking you are getting away with a real steal. While really good prices can still be found on occasion, in most cases there is something not right about cards and covers that sell for below their full market value. Such factors can be their condition, or lack the correct backstamps, or using low value stamps, or not using Zeppelin stamps when Zeppelin stamps were available during the time of the flight, or being sloppy and unattractive, or being fake. Take your time and make wise choices as you collect and you will really enjoy yourself. Be eager to buy and you will wind up either overpaying or if you get caught buying a fake you will lose all of your money you spend on that card or cover.

Regarding your question about something that is inside of your sealed cover, yes it was and still is common for purely philatelic mail to have a piece of light cardboard or stiff paper inside. These are normally blank. There are two good reasons why collectors put these in their philatelic covers before sending them - the first is to provide some stiffening so their cover would not get folded or mangled as it went through the mail. The second reason is by having something inside it would make the cancellation and any cachets optimal since it would give the cancellation or cachet device something to push against when being applied and leaving a nice clear, full and dark impression. Sometimes, though, philatelists were able to get interesting things that relate to the first flight to put inside such as an original Zeppelin Company flight schedule or the official announcement of the first flight or such. Hold your cover up very close to a strong light (don't burn it by touching it to the light bulb though) and you should be able to see if the filler is anything interesting. Even if it is you would likely not want to open the cover to get it unless it is more valuable than the cover itself. In such a case you would want to very gently steam open the back flap and not cut or tear the envelope open along one of its sides as such opening is a big detraction on the value of the cover.

Thanks Kimo. Some great advice there, and great info. I wasn't aware of the 'acceptance covers' so I'm going to be researching up on those for certain. That Canadian acceptance letter is a beauty, eh. :)

I was aware of the Julius Bock fakes, though actually they have become somewhat collectible in themselves, being older fakes. Apparently there's a newer slew of fakes showing up on ebay that are more difficult to discern though, but I've only read of these and haven't identified any for myself yet. Now that I think about, I believe I read that most of the newer fakes featured stamps from other countries, so many these were fake acceptance covers. The only fakes I've seen on ebay so far were fairly easy to identify as fake, and the sellers were even identifying them as such. I'm actually really interested in adding some fakes to my collection as well.

Kimo, I just wanted to thank you for your very informative post! I always learn something from your comments about covers posted in this forum

I have to add that looking at sold auctions on zep mail, if prices were what you suggested, things seem to be heating up a bit. There's a lot of zep mail auctions ending in the $30-40 prices range, and the only ones that are ending in the sub-$20 range are either in poor condition or have huge shipping costs associated with them.

The only 'acceptance letters' I found were all closer to $70-100+ even before bidding was ended.

Then again, I'm in Canada, so I only see auctions available to Canadians. Anyone in the US may be seeing auctions that were listed for the US only, and that could change the perspective.

Thanks Jenny. It is nice to hear that I am reaching people with my advice.

Hi itviking. On ebay the only way to see what things are worth is to ignore all of the current auctions as a large number of them have starting bids set artificially high in hopes of catching someone who does not do their research on actual values. What one needs to do is to set their search with the filter for "SOLD LISTINGS".

Here are some examples of some very nice Zeppelin cards and covers and the prices at which they actually sold:

This 1936 first flight card from Germany to the US (Sieger 406c) with a Zeppelin stamp went for US $10.01 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeppelin-LZ...047675.l2557

Here is another equally clean and attractive card from the same flight that sold for $8.09 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeppelin-LZ...047675.l2557

And here is a beautiful cover with two 'On Board' cancellations from the same flight that went for $16.39 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Germany-193...047675.l2557

Here is a very clean and attractive USS Akron (the ZR-4) Zeppelin flight cover from 1932 that sold for $4.13 http://www.ebay.com/itm/USS-Akron-Z...047675.l2557

Here is a beautiful Registered mail Hindenburg cover with both German Zeppelin stamps from 1936 that sold for $9.99 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Germany-ZEP...047675.l2557

Or for a bit more, at $18.31 here is a beautiful Brazilian dispatch on Condor stationery that flew on a Graf Zeppelin flight in 1933 http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAZIL-1933...047675.l2557

And these are only a few of the ones that are very nicely done, in excellent condition, and not very expensive. Again, though, you must use the ebay search filter for SOLD LISTINGS.

Thanks Kimo. I did mention that I was looking at sold listings.

A few sold cheaper today but there was a flood of decent covers ending all around the same time. Also, shipping to Canada on some of them is more than the auction end price, so essentially you're still paying $30 for a $15 auction.

A few examples...

You know that Canada 'acceptance letter' you showed us? Like this one... $280.50 in a bidding auction!

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Canada-Good-...AOSw1S9WfGMD



'May Day' (final German flight) Hindenburg cover... $76 US or $100+ Cdn. I'm guessing for the souvenir sheet. Seems way expensive, especially when I've seen nicer May Day covers end for $40.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Hindenburg-L...AOSwll1WyYrQ

Very poor condition 1st NAF = $10 US

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1936-Germany...AOSwe7BWymX~

Another poor one = $14 US

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Germany-1936...vfa2A93yQdoA

Plain decent cover with poor stamps 1st NAF = $20 US

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/HINDENBURG-Z...AOSw5dNWp~j-


Nice but otherwise ordinary 1 NAF return. NY posted. Nearly $40 US or $50+ Cdn.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/USA-1936-ZEP...AOSwP~tW10Hh

Nice but way expensive 1st SAF post card. $100 US

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Germany-Hind...AOSwKtVW1NF5

"And here is a beautiful cover with two 'On Board' cancellations from the same flight that went for $16.39"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Germany-193...047675.l2557

I love that cover and I plan to pick one up one day. Its actually a very common cover though I'm finding. I've seen maybe a half dozen identical for sale lately, mostly on ebay. Exactly the same. They seem to go for around $20 on average.

Hi itviking. Yes, there are many examples where people have overpaid, especially for covers in poor condition. My point is simply that with some patience and being discerning, one can find very nice Zeppelin covers of the more common flights for good prices.

Yes, and that a very valid point. I agree completely. But my point wasn't to suggest there aren't good deals out there. My point is that what I'm seeing is a whole lot of these auctions selling for high prices. Its not an aberration. Value is generally guided by averages of sales, which tend to be affected by supply & demand.

I still cant get over this one... but such a nice cover too.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Canada-Good-...AOSw1S9WfGMD


Anything special about this one to justify the price beside being nice? Does the zep on the image justify the price?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GERMANY-1936...AOSwZG9WkCwH