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France - How To Identify Sage Series, Type Ia-C And Type IIa-E ?

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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/01/2017   3:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I am lost with the sage issues

http://aremorica.free.fr/topic/index.php
This specialists site gives very detailed info for various states of each subtype IIE and IID for the 15 centimes - but - what is a IID, IIE etc... - and which denominations were issued in different subtypes? Unfair that this is not stated in Maury
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3744 Posts
Posted 11/01/2017   5:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
When the 15c first came out on the 10 of june 1878 it was printed
in sheets of 50.As time went on different characteristics could be found
in the stamps.These are the Famous Types IID,IIE as well as some others.
The "Etat" is the variations in each sub-type.Now if the stamp is cancelled with a visible date we can place the stamp in a particular
printing time.In the link it says for example the IID sheet made it's first
apparition in Mai 1881 with 5 "etats" 1,2,3,4,5.In the sheet of 50 there
will always be a multiple numbers of "etats" as shown here for the IID.
24 sont à l'état 1
9 sont à l'état 2
8 sont à l'état 3
7 sont à l'état 4
2 sont à l'état 5
In the link you can now check the different "etats" or states.!
In sheet IIE there was a small variation.
The vertical dimensions also varied because of paper shrinkage & spacing between the stamps.
Plating the IID for example ;one could eventually position each stamp in the sheet,but this requires
very specialized literature..

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Edited by perf12 - 11/01/2017 5:29 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/01/2017   5:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
perf12 - thanks a lot, I appreciate you trying to help, but I am afraid it did not bring me any further. I have already used google translate on each of those types of the 15c, and the translations has made sense. However this website seems far too specialized, so it is describing the various states of each subtype - but seems to take it for granted that the user already know how or have a catalog to aid to differentiate the various subtypes - so the subtypes are not explained or illustrated.
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Pillar Of The Community
France, Metropolitan
3744 Posts
Posted 11/01/2017   6:00 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add perf12 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Do you have a particular stamp you want too find with a good pic too show? This way we can start from that.
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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/01/2017   8:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A very good idea - that could work - but as before the scanner I have available is very poor, and will not allow sufficient level of details to clearly see the minor details etc that differs between the various sub-types.

What I am looking for is illustrations of the differences between all the sub-types, so I can positively identify them - and an overview of which denomination exists in the various sub-types. The reference earlier in my thread for the 1 centimes denomination mentions IIA, IIB and IIC - but as far as I know there are at least also IID and IIE - maybe more? And I do not know if the 'signs' to look for at the 1c denomination are identical for all the other denominations as well - or if the various denominations have different signs to look for.
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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/09/2017   1:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I would like to send a huge 'thank you!' to a gentleman in UK. Geoff has sent me scans from his Yvert specialized catalog which settles my questions. Case closed.

What a friendly and helpful community!
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1449 Posts
Posted 11/09/2017   2:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Renden to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Where do you get an Yvert et Tellier France catalog ?

yvert.com has some cat....$$$$$ 55 Euros (+shipping !) which must be as expensive (C$81.18 for the cat)

Blaamand, I note that page 118 of Maury does not present, it seems, all sub-types for any given denomination - I wonder why such a good reference is incomplete ?
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Edited by Renden - 11/09/2017 2:42 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/09/2017   4:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Maury does not present, it seems, all sub-types for any given denomination - I wonder why such a good reference is incomplete ?


Yes, that is exactly what has been frustrating for me as well. In general I am very pleased with my Maury and for most issues it is listing a wealth of varieties, printing errors, curiosities etc, much more than I will ever need. And the catalog keeps doing this up to recent issues, tons of information. I have been working with the various main-types and subtypes of the Seumeuse / Sower series now for 2 weeks, and the Sowers are listed very detailed. Example given the Sower 25c blue, Maury #140 (Sc. #168, Michel #119).



This stamp is listed in 4 different 'main'types (I-IV) - and 5 sub-types (IA, IB, IIIA, IIIB, IIIC ). In total Maury is listing 68 varieties of this sower, which in comparison is listed in Scott with only 1 imperf variety and in Michel with 2 varieties.

But for some reason Maury treats the marvelous Sage issues with 'disrespect'. My catalog does not even mention that there are sub-types at all, it simply define the two 'normal' main type I or II - similar as Scott and Michel does - but that's it.

I struggle to understand why Maury put so much effort in describing the semi-modern and for the most cases low-value Sower sub-types - and ignores the more classic Sage. The Sage issues are much more valuable and as such more interesting. The identification of sub-types are of 'crucial' interest for anyone wondering if they have the 1c on Prussian blue paper (as described earlier in this thread) but still no mentioning about it.

From another perspective, Maury is devoting no less than 23 pages alone for extremely detailed listings of the 'Bordeaux' issues (9 stamps) and all their plating differences - that is far too much for most! These 'Bordeaux' issues are expensive and hard to find in large amounts as they were only printed in limited numbers between 1870-71. The Sage issues on the other hand were the only 'working horses' for the postal services from 1876 until 1900 - 42 different stamps - and these were printed in 1000' of millions. Both the ink color and paper colors are all over the charts, there are endless printing differences etc that are easy to see, still these are devoted 'only' 13 pages. Something does not add up.

I could understand all this if Maury is also publishing a specialized classical catalog - but as far as I know they don't. (?)

Well, that my frustration out, thanks for bearing with it!
Guess I should stop this fruitless despair and get myself a Yvert specialised


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Edited by Blaamand - 11/09/2017 4:54 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1449 Posts
Posted 11/09/2017   5:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Renden to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Blaamand

that was my question....where.......how.......how much.........shipping.........




......and get a good 24 hour rest on Ipanema beach !
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Edited by Renden - 11/09/2017 5:49 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
8579 Posts
Posted 11/09/2017   6:03 pm  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You could email Alain and ask him how much postage would be to Canada ... unless You needed other things that would reduce the postage element

https://www.thematimbres.com/PBSCCa...CatID=381459
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1449 Posts
Posted 11/09/2017   6:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Renden to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Geoff
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Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
8579 Posts
Posted 11/10/2017   11:11 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The book weighs over 2 kilos, which is putting air-mail to Norh America in the £20+ region, I think.
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Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/10/2017   11:24 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
If specializing on France I bet it is worth every cent/pence of it!
Rather spend the like of a meal out or a few pints than wasting lots of time trying to figure out what is what.
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Pillar Of The Community
Canada
1449 Posts
Posted 11/10/2017   1:40 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Renden to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@ geoffHa
I received a quote from Alain at Thematimbres: 22.90 Euros for the cat and 32 Euros for shipping to Canada TOT: 54.90 Euros ($C81.20)
Yvert.com sells the Timbres de France Cat for 55 Euros (??) On Alain's Website he sells for 57+ Euros (??)Contacted him again as I feel we are not talking about the same Cat
Thanks
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Edited by Renden - 11/10/2017 1:48 pm
Pillar Of The Community
Norway
1661 Posts
Posted 11/10/2017   3:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Blaamand to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Wow - seems like a very good price!
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