Danish West Indies_ask, Show And Tell

Hello All

I am currently working on some recently acquired Danish West Indies items.
These items include various stamps, covers, postcards, documentary and miscellaneous.
I realize that there are different forums for each category but I thought I would post them all under one thread as stamps questions are the main theme. Also this way all my questions and any answers will be together on the same thread.

My first questions are about Scott numbers 9 and 11.
A.
Is the #9 stamp 'lilac and orange' or lilac and yellow' ?
Does this appear to be used or unused ? (it has no gum)
B.
Is the #11 stamp, 'red lilac & yellow green' or 'lilac & deep green' ?
C.
Are these real or forgeries ?

Thanks for any input given on this question and all subsequent questions.
htx

Htx, the stamps you show are from the Danish West Indies, not the Dutch West Indies.


Peter

Thanks for the correction Peter4522

I just showed what a newbie I really am...changes have been made.

Hi, I don't own a scott catalogue.

but I can tell you everything about danish west indies bicoloured.

7cent is 2nd printing, position 36 in the sheet - unused no gum. (the cheapest shade)
12 cent is 2nd printing position 95 (the cheapest shade)

both are genuine

print 1 7cents, you won't be in doubt when you have one, much more faint in the frame, and much more yellow in the oval.
if in doubt just post it here.

i'll post 12 cent print 1 and 2 for comparison, print 1 isn't common, and quite often in horrific quality, sotn cancels are common though, but with defects.
a good quality print 1 will cost a pretty penny.



you'll find useful information regarding the bicoloured in this thread.

https://goscf.com/t/52341

First (sorry, did not get your name).
Thanks for posting the link to forgeries identification. I did not have that one.
.
.
Hello Sorsh
Thank-you very much for your reply and help.
I did read your 16 page thread prior to starting this thread.
It had a lot of information which unfortunately went over my head.
That discussion was more for the advanced class and I am no-where near that level.

I only have one of each of those stamps so I had nothing to compare them too. And the internet sites I went to ( such as stampworld ) the colors did not seem to match exactly or they do not list my stamp at all. Color distinction between what is the written color in the library book and what is displayed on the internet screen are totally different. All which adds to my difficulty.

Thanks
htx

My second question is:

These appear to be documentary stamps on partial paper.

The R2 50bit is listed with possibly having an 'inverted watermark' .
Is there another way of determining an inverted watermark without removing the stamp ?

All three are only listed as 'used' or 'unused' with no mention of 'used on paper'.
I was only able to find one of these types on the internet in the MNH form.
What value might I apply to these on paper ? Are these rare ?

you're correct.




strong light is the only way to see a watermark on a piece of paper.



Yes, used is used and it doesn't matter if they're on paper.
some don't like "stamps" on paper, some like to have all of the cancel.




they're not rare, they're also not collected by many.
main reason being that they're in theory not stamps, at least not postage stamp.

these also exist in a danish form, and all of which aren't very popular.

if you had the entire document on which they used to be on originally it could have interest to some.
they were used on all official papers, like deeds.

There was also a governmental seal of some sort. I have no idea what it was used for.
Perhaps it was used along with the documentary stamps as shown above.

Or maybe it was part of the Custom House stamps RL4 with Toldkammer Cancel.
Of course the cancellations on these three stamps are not clearly defined. But under 600dpi scanning, two of these stamps display the special purple cancellation, although scantly. The next question is of course are these real or forgeries ?

I looked at the forgery website that was provided and the stamps look good to me.
But the cancellations are another issue. Any opinions or links on this please.

Thanks.

Here are some covers with half stamp used as two cents.
They are all dated 1903.
The first one is a perf 14 and from Frederiksted to St. Thomas (on back).
The second one is a perf 13 from Christiansted to St. Thomas (on back).
And the last two are perf 13 postmarked St. Thomas.

The first one is perf 14 X 13 1/2 which makes it ( I think ) an 1874-79 issue.
The upper left corner is cut just where the frame type indicator would be.
Is there another way to tell if it is an 'inverted frame' by looking at the corners that are still visible ?

Side Thought:
The Perf 13 stamps were issued in 1896-1901.
Those stamps seem reasonably issued for use as postage in 1903.
So the Scott number of 18a seems appropriate for those covers.

But the Perf 14 stamp was issued about 25 years before it was used as postage.
Is that not a long time for the user or post office to keep and then use as postage in 1903?
The Scott book list the Perf 14 stamp as 7c under year of issue. Is this correct for a 1903 postage ?

Also, what is your evaluation of there overall individual condition ?
How are covers described? .... very fine......fine ....rough.......stained ?
Are certifications usually required for covers like this ? And in general ?

these are to seal the envelope, melted lacquer where you press your seal into to show where it comes from.. a common thing.




perhaps, but without the envelope, not much use besides a pretty little thing.





most likely genuine.

i know it was stated that alot of forged dwi exist, but that's really not my experience
main concern is false cancellations.. since most stamps are worth more cancelled.

and those that have been are easy to identify.

can't tell from those small scans.





you can always tell if the stamp is inverted or not, just need the upper left, or the lower right, so turn the stamp accordingly.
a better scan and I can tell.

with all these letters there are but a few that are not made by collectors or for collectors.
and some even made later with a printed cancel, the perf 14 is almost 100% certain to be, as you noted, it was issued many years before.
but it's not unlikely to have stamps survive so many years.. a 4cent isn't as likely as it's mainly highvalued stamps.





don't understand that question, and I don't own scott




would need better scans





No not for the normal ones they exist in thousands, a genuine perf 14 on cover, sure.. but as of 2016 danish specialized catalogue, still only 1 is known to be genuine.

Hello Sorsh

I appreciate all your effort in helping me and I will not forget your kindness.
Which catalogue book do you use ?
Please feel free to use your catalogue book to describe stamp colors or stamp numbers.
I will cross reference any information you might provide to my use.

Green Covers:
I agree with your statement that the two covers in green were created by a collector.
They are both addressed to the same person ( in the same hand writing ) and un-opened.

All Four Covers:
Three of the covers all seem to have the same color of stamp.
But the Frederiksted canceled stamp seems to be a different shade of blue than the other three. If the stamp is not to faded, can you tell what color it is?

First Scan:
Is a close up of ( what I think is ) the perf 14 x 13 1/2 stamp with the Frederiksted cancel.
I measured many times and the horizontal measures either 13 1/2 or 14 but not 13.
And the vertical measures 13 1/2 .... not more , not less
Can you ( or perhaps another talented person ) tell by this scan if I measured it correctly ?

Second and Third scans:
Is of the perf 13 Christiansted cancel and St. Thomas cancel.
I can not tell if they are of the inverted type. Does the closer scan give any further clues ?

i've worked with bicoloured for some years now, so I don't really use books anymore. But in the learning years I used Lasse Nielsen's 6 books, and the danish specialized catalogue.




no I can tell you what color I think it is, but since we all percieve color differently and i'm looking at a screen, and you look at the stamp in daylight or through a magnifying glass thingy.
it won't do any good.

any company who makes catalogues, or experts who makes specialized litterature all gave color different names.

the link I provided with a walk through on plating techniques very clearly states that color is not to be trusted.

however...

the stamp looks to be 2nd print, so perf 14.
and it looks genuine, had it been print 1, it would have been 1 of 2 known examples.
a ½ print 2 on cover is listed at around $200 the perf 12 3/4 are listed at around $150.





the "maingroup" appears to be maingroup 4, so it could only be perf 14.






they are both normal frame, one is hard to tell. but has an ovalflaw making it either print 3, pos 39 or print 4 pos 82 and neither have inverted frame.

the inverted frames aren't common. (11 positions in the sheet of print 3 and 4 are inverted) (2 in print 1, and 0 in print 2)

and as earlier mentioned, there are many thousands of these covers, and the prices are, in my oppinion, much too high... such a cover usually sell around $15-25 in denmark.

Postcard:
I cannot find this card in my book. Does anyone have a number for this postcard ?

Also below are some type of Christmas seals.
The first group is DWI.
I did find a site where a couple of these were shown but with no reference number.
Do these kind of Cinderellas have any number attached to them ?
Are they more collectable with or without a cancel ?

Is the last group also DWI ?

they are in the catalogues in denmark



they are really only collectable on covers and they have to have a cancel on a cover, or they could in theory have been placed there by a collector many years later.

one of your xmas stamps appears to have gum on the backside, but with a cancel, if so it's a forged cancel.



No, danish

Hello Sorsh

Your suggestion on how to see a watermark with a bright light .......did work.
I placed a flashlight with a very strong sharp light directly on the back of the paper and the watermark appeared. The result was that the watermark was not inverted. So as you say, those documentary stamps are not very collectable, I will soak them off the paper so that they will fit in my new DWI pages.

I studied the DWI group of stamps for little more than a week before I started my thread. I posted these items because that material seemed to be the most valuable . And I thought ( as most newbies do ) that I had found some valuable stamps. But even if I was correct and some of them were valuable, I doubted myself that I had done my home work correctly. So I needed to post for some self vindication ( or not ) about my work.

As it turned out, you have shed much light upon this DWI group and my upcoming evaluation of my Danish stamps. I have about 300 +/- regular issue DWI and Danish stamps. And by using the internet, my books and studying your previous thread https://goscf.com/t/52341 , I feel confident that I will be able to label the standard stamp issues correctly in my new pages.

Thanks again and Happy Stamping
HTx