Large Die Plate Proof?

Can someone explain to me what these are? There are a bunch of them on ebay. How can it be a die proof and a plate proof. It looks like a stamp-sized proof embedded in a large sheet with a line drawn around it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-SC-116p...AOSwc-tY7lD1

A die proof is an imprint of the die block. A plate proof is an imprint of the full printing plate. Large and small refers to the paper size.

There are several types of proofs. If you want a general idea, look for them in the Scott U.S. Specialized catalog.

The first distinction is between "die" and "plate" proofs. A die proof - of any size - is made from a single die, usually to test the die or to offer a variety of colors from which the issued stamp will be printed in. These latter are often called trial color proofs.

The large die you are showing in the link is a die proof. This is a single print. If you look at the card it was printed on, you can see the squarish outline of the rest of the die as it was impressed into the card. Often, these are impressed into a sheet of india paper (very thin, very absorbent and great for die impressions) which has been laid atop the card. The pressure from the printing impresses the design into the india paper and presses the india paper into the card.

Plate proofs are made from a plate of images, the same as a sheet of stamps is. The distinction here is that these impressions are most often done on india paper or thin card. There are multiple images printed at the same time.

To call the item shown a large die plate proof is an error by the seller. If it is a single image proof, it is a die proof. If there are multiple images, it is a plate proof.

Here are some examples to give you an idea:

This first one is a large die proof, reduced to the size shown. Note that this item still shows the entire area which was impressed by the printing into the card. This is Scott 66P1. While it may look similar to Scott 65, the color is not the same.



Next is a plate proof on card. This would have been cut from a sheet of the plate proofs to create the individual proof. This is Scott 65P4.





A very nice collection of plate proofs can be obtained still and makes a great alternative to a collection of mint 19th century items. The BEP sold these in five different printings in the 1890's. The entirety of the issues created up to that time was offered at face value (these were without varieties such as grilled issues or color variants).

There were some other printings later, but that might complicate things for now.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks and I do understand the difference between a die proof and a plate proof. I don't think this is what it appears to be. Zoom in on the image of the stamp and you will see that the item impressed into the India is stamp sized. The outline that looks like the outline of the die proof is just an ink line. I think this is a plate proof disguised as a die proof.

Ah, I see what you are saying. A P3 applied to a paper/card.

Right, so my question is, is this a thing that is normal or some sort of deception? That is, is this something that was legitimately produced at some time or something concocted by a charlatan?

It's being called a Large Die Hybrid Plate Proof.

It certainly looks like other hybrids that. I have seen. That does not mean that it is genuine.

Since it can't be both a die and a plate proof I guess a better name would be Small Plate Hybrid Proof?

Anyway, it seems to me it is not a 116P1 as advertised.

Here is the definition of a "hybrid" from The Encyclopedia of United States Stamps and Stamp Collecting (published by the US Stamp Society):
"Hybrid Proof - generally, a nineteenth century plate proof cut close and typically mounted on India paper which is then mounted on a larger piece of cardboard. It may also show die sinkage. Some hybrid proofs were made from die proofs. Hybrid proofs resemble Large Die Proofs."

I think that the seller has awkwardly, but correctly described the item he is selling. These items were quite often part of a salesman's sample book and as such are post production items. If it has gold leaf on its edge then it was part of a sample book. The value of these items is noticeably less than the Scott Catalogue value for a full sized large die proof and typically less valued by proof collectors.

Thanks wtcrowe - this seems to complete the picture for me. I guess there is no real Scott number for these, but the description could be a bit clearer. Cheers.

Risny,

There are some excellent references which go beyond the Scott Catalog. First and foremost is Clarence Brazer's book on Essays of United States Postage Stamps. Originally issued in 1947, it was reprinted by Quarterman Publications circa 1978.

A shorter version, issued recently by James E. Lee, discusses specifically what you are asking about and is entitled "The Various Kinds of United States Essays and Proofs."

If you are looking at the 1869 issue particularly, then Fred P. Schueren's volume "The United States 1869 Issue - An Essay-Proof History" is the volume you want.