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Valued Member
United States
125 Posts |
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I have several blocks of these stamps and was trying to research the significance of the plate block numbers. Then, I thought maybe image differences. Well I couldnt find anything about image. Also, realize I need a plate block number reference. To the question, are their several varieties of this stamp? I noticed the images shifted to the left on only one stamp, only me. Three pictures coming up, 1 is the stamp and the others are the comparison. Thank you TJA    |
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Moderator
United States
12330 Posts |
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The stamp was printed in two passes, so the registration can wander. This makes it likely that stamps will not be well aligned on some stamps. Hobbyists would have increased demand if the mis-registration is very, very striking to the eye. Plate number for this issue are somewhat more complex than other stamps. You can find free, online plate number info on Stamp Smarter. http://stampsmarter.com/features/Pl...ockHome.htmlThe plate numbers are in pairs (one for red plate and one for black plate), there is a total of 472 pairs of plate numbers and they are listed below. 20470 20461 20470 20462 20470 20463 20470 20464 20470 20465 20470 20478 20470 20479 20470 20480 20470 20481 20470 20482 20470 20483 20470 20484 20470 20485 20470 20486 20470 20487 20470 20488 20472 20461 20472 20462 20472 20463 20472 20464 20472 20465 20472 20478 20472 20479 20472 20480 20472 20481 20472 20482 20472 20483 20472 20484 20472 20485 20472 20486 20472 20487 20472 20488 20473 20461 20473 20462 20473 20463 20473 20464 20473 20465 20473 20478 20473 20479 20473 20480 20473 20481 20473 20482 20473 20483 20473 20484 20473 20485 20473 20486 20473 20487 20473 20488 20474 20461 20474 20462 20474 20463 20474 20464 20474 20465 20474 20478 20474 20479 20474 20480 20474 20481 20474 20482 20474 20483 20474 20484 20474 20485 20474 20486 20474 20487 20474 20488 20475 20461 20475 20462 20475 20463 20475 20464 20475 20465 20475 20478 20475 20479 20475 20480 20475 20481 20475 20482 20475 20483 20475 20484 20475 20485 20475 20486 20475 20487 20475 20488 20476 20461 20476 20462 20476 20463 20476 20464 20476 20465 20476 20478 20476 20479 20476 20480 20476 20481 20476 20482 20476 20483 20476 20484 20476 20485 20476 20486 20476 20487 20476 20488 20477 20461 20477 20462 20477 20463 20477 20464 20477 20465 20477 20478 20477 20479 20477 20480 20477 20481 20477 20482 20477 20483 20477 20484 20477 20485 20477 20486 20477 20487 20477 20488 20504 20461 20504 20462 20504 20463 20504 20464 20504 20465 20504 20478 20504 20479 20504 20480 20504 20481 20504 20482 20504 20483 20504 20484 20504 20485 20504 20486 20504 20487 20504 20488 20505 20461 20505 20462 20505 20463 20505 20464 20505 20465 20505 20478 20505 20479 20505 20480 20505 20481 20505 20482 20505 20483 20505 20484 20505 20485 20505 20486 20505 20487 20505 20488 20506 20461 20506 20462 20506 20463 20506 20464 20506 20465 20506 20478 20506 20479 20506 20480 20506 20481 20506 20482 20506 20483 20506 20484 20506 20485 20506 20486 20506 20487 20506 20488 20507 20461 20507 20462 20507 20463 20507 20464 20507 20465 20507 20478 20507 20479 20507 20480 20507 20481 20507 20482 20507 20483 20507 20484 20507 20485 20507 20486 20507 20487 20507 20488 20508 20461 20508 20462 20508 20463 20508 20464 20508 20465 20508 20478 20508 20479 20508 20480 20508 20481 20508 20482 20508 20483 20508 20484 20508 20485 20508 20486 20508 20487 20508 20488 20509 20461 20509 20462 20509 20463 20509 20464 20509 20465 20509 20478 20509 20479 20509 20480 20509 20481 20509 20482 20509 20483 20509 20484 20509 20485 20509 20486 20509 20487 20509 20488 20510 20461 20510 20462 20510 20463 20510 20464 20510 20465 20510 20478 20510 20479 20510 20480 20510 20481 20510 20482 20510 20483 20510 20484 20510 20485 20510 20486 20510 20487 20510 20488 20511 20461 20511 20462 20511 20463 20511 20464 20511 20465 20511 20478 20511 20479 20511 20480 20511 20481 20511 20482 20511 20483 20511 20484 20511 20485 20511 20486 20511 20487 20511 20488 20512 20461 20512 20462 20512 20463 20512 20464 20512 20465 20512 20478 20512 20479 20512 20480 20512 20481 20512 20482 20512 20483 20512 20484 20512 20485 20512 20486 20512 20487 20512 20488 20597 20461 20597 20462 20597 20463 20597 20464 20597 20465 20597 20478 20597 20479 20597 20480 20597 20481 20597 20482 20597 20483 20597 20484 20597 20485 20597 20486 20597 20487 20597 20488 20598 20461 20598 20462 20598 20463 20598 20464 20598 20465 20598 20478 20598 20479 20598 20480 20598 20481 20598 20482 20598 20483 20598 20484 20598 20485 20598 20486 20598 20487 20598 20488 20599 20461 20599 20462 20599 20463 20599 20464 20599 20465 20599 20478 20599 20479 20599 20480 20599 20481 20599 20482 20599 20483 20599 20484 20599 20485 20599 20486 20599 20487 20599 20488 20600 20461 20600 20462 20600 20463 20600 20464 20600 20465 20600 20478 20600 20479 20600 20480 20600 20481 20600 20482 20600 20483 20600 20484 20600 20485 20600 20486 20600 20487 20600 20488 20601 20461 20601 20462 20601 20463 20601 20464 20601 20465 20601 20478 20601 20479 20601 20480 20601 20481 20601 20482 20601 20483 20601 20484 20601 20485 20601 20486 20601 20487 20601 20488 20602 20461 20602 20462 20602 20463 20602 20464 20602 20465 20602 20478 20602 20479 20602 20480 20602 20481 20602 20482 20602 20483 20602 20484 20602 20485 20602 20486 20602 20487 20602 20488 20650 20646 20650 20647 20650 20648 20650 20649 20650 20668 20650 20669 20650 20670 20650 20671 20651 20646 20651 20647 20651 20648 20651 20649 20651 20668 20651 20669 20651 20670 20651 20671 20652 20646 20652 20647 20652 20648 20652 20649 20652 20668 20652 20669 20652 20670 20652 20671 20653 20646 20653 20647 20653 20648 20653 20649 20653 20668 20653 20669 20653 20670 20653 20671 20656 20646 20656 20647 20656 20648 20656 20649 20656 20668 20656 20669 20656 20670 20656 20671 20657 20646 20657 20647 20657 20648 20657 20649 20657 20668 20657 20669 20657 20670 20657 20671 20659 20646 20659 20647 20659 20648 20659 20649 20659 20668 20659 20669 20659 20670 20659 20671 20660 20646 20660 20647 20660 20648 20660 20649 20660 20668 20660 20669 20660 20670 20660 20671 20661 20646 20661 20647 20661 20648 20661 20649 20661 20668 20661 20669 20661 20670 20661 20671 20662 20646 20662 20647 20662 20648 20662 20649 20662 20668 20662 20669 20662 20670 20662 20671 20663 20646 20663 20647 20663 20648 20663 20649 20663 20668 20663 20669 20663 20670 20663 20671 20664 20646 20664 20647 20664 20648 20664 20649 20664 20668 20664 20669 20664 20670 20664 20671 20665 20646 20665 20647 20665 20648 20665 20649 20665 20668 20665 20669 20665 20670 20665 20671 20666 20646 20666 20647 20666 20648 20666 20649 20666 20668 20666 20669 20666 20670 20666 20671 20667 20646 20667 20647 20667 20648 20667 20649 20667 20668 20667 20669 20667 20670 20667 20671 Don |
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Valued Member
Canada
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Good morning TJ and Don,
There is a lot more to this issue than meets the eye! Personally, I believe that it is one of the most overlooked and misunderstood issues from it's era.
If you take a look at the body of research uncovered on this issue by Max Johl, you will find that there were actually two separate printings.
When the stamp was first produced, the 100 subject sheet had to be wetted down twice in order to accommodate the printing of the two plates, hence the two plate numbers, one for the "frame" plate and one for the "vignette" plate. The problem arose from the fact that because the paper was wetted twice, the result was considerable shrinkage, which sometimes prevented the vignette from properly keying into the frame and therefore excessive waste. Therefore, any examples of this issue that do not have the vignettes keying properly into the frame are most likely from the first set of printings. Also the plate numbers from the first printing have an "F" before them as is clearly shown in TJ's example at the beginning of this thread.
A second printing was therefore produced which Johl calls the "second plate layout". This time, in order to reduce the shrinkage, poor keying and subsequent wastage, the new sheets consisted of 2 panes of 50 subjects and the grain of the paper was rotated 90 degrees.
What the Bureau ended up with was two different sized stamps from the two different printings of this issue!
It is quite easy to tell the two issues apart because the stamps from the first printing measure 36.375 mm long whereas the stamps from the second printing measure 37 mm long and their plate numbers have the "F" following them!
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Valued Member
United States
125 Posts |
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Thank you for the help! More than I was able to find on my own. I appreciate the numbers. I'm going to show the entire block on the second. Also going to get on the website you referred to Don more later today. I appreciate the F lettering explanation. Treina  |
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Moderator
United States
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The letter 'F' in plate numbers are found on other plates of the era and designated that those plates were hardened.
Don |
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1414 Posts |
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Check pages 85 and 86 of the 2016 United States Stamp Society Durland Plate Number Catalog provides a complete description of the first and second plate layouts but omits mention of paper grain. Durland gives additonal information about placement of the "F" on each plate. Because smaller black vignette plates were used, the black "F" appears in combination with the red "F" on the top left and alone on the top right. The Scott US Specialist catalog goes into more detail about the plate layouts, but does not specify, except by inference the plate layout for 703a, 703b and 703c. By inference 703b lake is from the first plate layout and 703c pairs imperf vertically are from the second plate layout.
On-line access to fully reviewed information including open issues or disagreements would be helpful. Existing catalogs fall woefully short. Unfortunately, a catalog is a report, presumably from an underlying database. Unfortunately, no existing stamp catalog appears to be backed up by a (searchable) database. |
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United States
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Thanks for the additional info Clark. I stopped buying new catalogs and reference materials about 4 years ago when my prognosis was 6 months to live. When you have expiration date stamped on the bottom of your foot and are racking up extraordinary medical costs on your family, you stop spending money on hobby stuff. So I obviously agree with digital solutions and would love to have the option for an affordable, short term subscription.
I would also assume that having an affordable, short term subscription would be an ideal solution for those who only want access to lookup a few things in their collections up (as opposed to those who are more serious students).
Don |
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Bedrock Of The Community
United States
10632 Posts |
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The four volumes of the Johl book are online at the Siegel site. Click on "research" and then "the Siegel Encyclopedia". Volume II has a lot of info on this issue. |
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United States
12330 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
125 Posts |
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Alot of good help and resources for this one. That Stamp Smarter is great! Took me a bit to navigate, but the way they organized a huge Subject. Anyway just a side note I measured the Stamps based on the info received. Measurements really varied, the block with the f and the single are small, equal to 36 mm. The second block, measured the 36.3. I did have one other 703, already in an album, and that was large standing next to the 36 mm stamp at 37.1 mm.
Still reading up on things. Thanks a bunch Trein
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Replies: 9 / Views: 2,809 |
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Posted 01/14/2018 02:52 am
