Anthony's Llc Dismal PF Report Card = Follow Up To 10/23/17 Discussion

Beating a dead horse knows no limits?

much, much better than beating a live one though

It's amazing how some of these threads head off in the direction they do. This one has gone from a seller listing bogus material that certainly does not take a team of forensic experts to validate, to threatening a man's livelihood? All we're trying to do is get bad listings removed so honest buyers and collectors don't get hosed.

Not true at all. ebay is a poor place to buy stamps if you are either a novice or you are not prudent in your buying practices or decisions. As a venue/platform, ebay has far more buyer protections in place than a traditional auction house, buying from a show dealer, or a brick & mortar store.

Expecting ebay to "police" all its listings has never been realistic, just based upon manpower alone.

Rhetorical question for those that believe that ebay should be policing all listings: would you be willing to pay a 15% buyer's premium to staff such a venture? Conversely, if not, would you expect sellers to incur a 15% seller premium on top of existing seller fees to fund it?

Someone has to pay for it.

My guess is that either attempt would kill the golden goose.

@rogdcam - I'm glad to see you've kept your sense of humor.


That is a widely held misconception. The PF, PSE, APEX, and others only issue opinions. When they put a lot of research into those opinions, they are informed opinions and deserve respect. However, since none of them stand behind those opinions with any kind of guarantee, legally their opinions are not binding nor a conclusive demonstration of fact. As always, each case must be looked at on its own merits.


Glad you asked. You should ask the seller for a guarantee, and keep a dated copy of the request. If none is forthcoming but you bought anyway, your feedback should include the statement "Despite request seller offered no guarantee." Because it is a clear, unemotional and verifiable statement of fact, ebay will not object nor remove it. It is however a clear statement that goes right to the heart of buyer concern and seller indifference. It assists others with "caveat emptor."


@rgstamp - I totally get what you are saying, and I sympathize. ebay is an "open market," and you have to know more than the seller in order to make it there. Those who don't may look with envy at those who do, but should not try to follow their lead. Nor should they resent the "haves" for what they themselves "have not." T'was ever thus and ever shall be. But SAN is a good place to connect, and most of my purchases come from there. (Then again, Langs is the only guy on ebay who sells what I collect.)


@cfrphoto - I collect obsolete US currency, and understand how those guidelines work. For obsolete currency Haxby and the newer Whitman guides only give general guidance in the matter of rarity and value. For US philatelic material the raw currency guidelines might be a bit draconian, inasmuch as the US Specialized is the primary reference tool but contains valuing information by grade. Direct reference to the Scott listings for an item c/would run afoul of the guidelines. Conceptually though, I get your point - i.e. above a certain value threshold, no item could be sold in its "raw" state; certification by a recognized authority would be required.

@51studebaker - you have been developing the very tool most needed to help these people. Education, yes. But not so much in buying strategies as in recognition and identification of material.

For collector protection, I still advocate the use of guarantees. It does wonders for the collecting of ancient coins, and could be done in stamps too.

Attorney #1 – I submit exhibit #XYZ001, PF certification which states the purchased item in question is fake.

Attorney #2 – Sorry, a PF certification is nothing more than an opinion.

Attorney #1 – Apparently a PF opinion is valid with your client since here are 150 listings he has previously used as a method of verification of identification and to generate higher prices.

Don

Would it be too much to have ebay simply tighten up a few rules? How about if a stamp has an asking price of say $50 - $100 (insert your own amount) that clear high resolution scans / photos of front and back are mandatory? How about just holding the sellers feet to the fire and making it compulsory for sellers to refund the purchase + shipping costs if mis-described? If sellers risk this perhaps they would be more diligent in assuring their listing is accurate. I'm also in the crowd that feels ebay is a good place to buy stamps and there are very good & fair sellers that you know put the time in to provide all pertinent information.

Again, who is going to police this? It's a manpower issue.




Sellers already have to refund shipping costs on SNAD claims. More importantly, what level of proof is required to determing that an item is "mis-described"? Just the buyer's say-so? A negative cert opinion? If the latter, who bears the cost?

Why would they implement programs like this for a miniscule category like stamps when they have not done so for much larger collectibles categories?

It's a potential minefield and time sink for ebay, and they are NOT going to down the road of granular determination and splitting of hairs.

You have to look at this whole issue from a business-owners perspective. Does the result justify the effort with respect to the business's costs involved.

Like it or not, reality has to rule the day here, not wishful thinking.

Geez...go away for a few days & I miss like 9 pages?!?!!

However, someone is watching this thread. It is having an effect. You guys don't like non-US, but this stamp is now gone from his listings...




Can't be a coincidence...it had been up for months & reported multiple times.

Keep reporting...it works - eventually!

ebay is the world's largest flea market, with the good, the bad, and the ugly. You just have to put your wallet in your front pants pocket and keep your eyes wide open as you walk through it.

Revenuecollector:

I would be willing to pay 15 percent buyers fee to ebay for more protection/police

occasionally I take a look on ebay looking for a 70 year old grandma selling collection of her deceased husband. She throws some scans up there, looks interesting... maybe throw a bid out hoping a treasure is packed in the album. It's fun.

Unfortunately ebay had more of this type of listing 15 years ago. Now more than 95 percent of listings are from experienced dealers, many frauds, some not... most of these dealers are looking for retail prices or trying to get high price on misidentified, doctored, or poorly described stamps. The reason we are talking about it so much here is because many of us are noticing the market is turning into listing after listing of nonsense fraud. My god last time I did ebay search for used, PF certified US stamps I got 50 pages of MOMEN stamps priced 30 percent more than I can get at Siegel including buyers fee. ebay back 15 years ago was awesome, now it's just second hand damaged stuff and requires full time job and doctorate in philately to avoid getting ripped off. Not for me.

Yes it can be a coincidence. You cannot make the leap from reported multiple times over MONTHS to the conclusion that ebay removed it.

If ebay removed it, the listing would be gone with no evidence, not left in place with the message about the seller ending the listing because the item was no longer available. When ebay removes your listing, it vanishes completely.

It's more likely that Anthony's sold it over the phone or through other channels.

The irony of that statement is priceless.

Are we in court trying to prove our case, or are we, as "reasonable people", basing our opinions on what other "reasonable people" would conclude? I would submit, and I suspect most here would agree, Anthony's were, on numerous occasions, deceptive and passed off what most "reasonable people" would conclude were altered or misrepresented stamps. Do we need to convince a judge and jury of this, or are we, as knowledgeable philatelists capable of reaching this conclusion? I would submit that an "expert witness" in the eyes of a court, especially in the field oh philately, is no more knowledgeable or qualified to make these type of judgments than several of the contributors to this thread. I would go so far as to bet that some of you here have probably already assumed this role (but, that's just a hunch)....Bottom line-I expect ebay, ASDA, APS and any other platform or conduit that can be used to further or legitimize a professional philatelist's career, to act, or at the very least, take notice to the legitimate concerns of their peers. To fall back on legal arguments to excuse such actions, is basically tantamount to green-lighting Anthony's, or any other perpetrator's, deception and fraud.

This type of case ends up in courts constantly. Instead of stamp experts, it is medical experts. Each side brings their own and they present their opinion that is not backed by a guarantee. The jury or judge listens to both sides ans choose the more compelling testimony. The judge does not throw out the experts because they don't offer a guarantee.