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Anthony's Llc Dismal PF Report Card = Follow Up To 10/23/17 Discussion

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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 01/16/2018   01:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DrewM to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1. If the expertizing fee is $30 or $40 and up per item, getting just the top 20 items in your collection evaluated is going to cost $600-800, most likely more. For 95-99% of collectors, they won't do it. These fees are not cheap, and they add up quickly. It's too bad there's no alternative for the middle-level collector who has dozens of fairly valuable stamp items. If I could send my top 25 most expensive stamps off to be expertized at a much lower overall "package" price, I'd be inclined to do it. But for $1000 (25 items x $40), that's not going to happen. Better to ask sellers to provide certificates, but most sellers won't want to do that, I'd think, unless the item is worth at least a few hundred dollars.

The result of these fees is an expertizing regime that favors the wealthy collector, but not the average collector. A more important result of an expertizing system little used by most buyers of stamps is that a great deal of unchecked but fairly expensive items will always be floating around on retail or auction sites and end up in people's collections. In fact, if most items which should be questioned don't get evaluated (and it's pretty obvious they don't get evaluated), most bad items will never get caught. The current expensive system of expertizing stamp items doesn't do much to stop that.

The result is what we have now: Sellers of these items, who are either not checking them or intentionally misleading about them, have few problems. Expecting a retail "auction" site like ebay to police stamp sales in a way that reduces their own income is a fantasy. ebay doesn't even employ a single stamp expert. They don't care. Raising an honesty or quality issue with ebay offers them no profit and wastes their time. If the money is rolling in, sellers, including ebay, are not going to care. Between ebay's corporate apathy and the fact that policing bad selling habits requires far more expertizing of stamp items than can ever realistically happen, I don't see many options short of hiring a lawyer. Caveat emptor. Dog eat dog. Welcome to late stage stamp collecting capitalism at its roughest and readiest.

If I were buying a high dollar item, I'd read up on it as much as I could and, unless I could afford multiple expertizing fees, I'd inspect it carefully and only buy if a return was allowed. And I'd buy only from the most highly-rated dealers (See #3 below).

In short, the system of expertizing stamps may be useful to protect investment by wealTheir collectors purchasing high dollar items, but it has only limited use for all other collectors. And waiting for ebay to "do something" is about as useful as holding your breath.

2. I don't understand the misreading of the comment about Stamp Auction Network charging a fee. Yes, of course it's the auction house that charges the fee. Isn't that what the commenter was intending to say? SAN is simply an aggregator of auctions. The comment was intended to point out that paying a fee -- any fee, paid to anyone -- was something you don't have to do when buying retail. For a $100 retail stamp purchase, you pay $100 (probably a tiny bit less since many retailers lower prices a little for larger purchases). In an auction, on the other hand, a $100 purchase gets no discount, and also charges a buyer's fee. That makes the auction purchase $110-120 for the same item a retail dealer might charge $95 for. Isn't that clearly what the commenter meant? I'm not sure why taking the comment so literally was necessary if his intention was clear.

3. As for Anthony's (and others) repeatedly selling misidentified stamps, even cheating customers, what's the protocol on this? Why not have a forum to list the quality of stamp firms so collectors can see which have a good and bad record? Would that lead to a lawsuit or other problems? Consumer ratings are used everywhere today from consumer rating websites like Yelp, consumer rating magazines, to seller's own website where purchasers leave ratings and comments. How else are collectors supposed to know which sellers they can trust and which they should avoid? It's a consumer's right to know this.

Could this forum develop a rating forum for stamp purchases? In doing so, one suggestion: Poor customer service needs to be separated from quality of products (forgeries, misleading descriptions, altered stamps, etc.). These are two separate things and customers often mix them together misleadingly ("It's a great car, no problems ever, I love it, but I didn't like the salesman"). A list of comments about, and ratings of, auction firms and retail sellers, including ebay, would be very helpful -- particularly if it had comments. Comments are essential because it's good to ignore comments (and ratings) that seem petty or irrelevant.I'm sure we'd all be wary of any firm that repeatedly sold misidentified, altered, or forged material. That's how you deal with seller problems. You don't do it by waiting for ebay to "do something" they will never do. And you don't do it by relying on a stamp evaluation system that costs average collectors more than they can afford. Why not do something like this?
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Edited by DrewM - 01/16/2018 01:44 am
Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 01/16/2018   02:28 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
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United Kingdom
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Posted 01/16/2018   02:56 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of small points. I'm not au fait with Stamp Auction Network, but those UK auction houses that use aggregators of this kind may also charge an additional percentage of the final price to a buyer who has used that method. The practice doubtless varies from one expertising organisation to another, but I note that the experts who provide certificates via the RPSL (of which I'm not a member) offer their time and expertise free.
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Valued Member
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Posted 01/16/2018   06:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add TangStamps to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I just started selling on ebay. I found it takes forever to get even 1000 feedback :). Did people buy feedbacks in ebay? LOL

But anyway, if you buy from ebay, buy from sellers who always describe Stamps in detail, show the photos of both sides, and also offer a guarantee of genuineness. I really hate forgeries and hidden repairs, which would drive collectors away from this hobby, especially the new comers.
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Posted 01/16/2018   07:04 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add 51studebaker to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, there is a 3rd party market for 'used' ebay accounts. For a price, you can buy an existing account with 1000s of feedbacks. People can also easily pad existing accounts feedback scores by simply selling huge amounts of inexpensive items. And this is also how people build accounts for resale.
Don
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Bedrock Of The Community
12647 Posts
Posted 01/16/2018   07:23 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The solution for me is to not patronize ebay. Period. It seems as if many people have convinced themselves that ebay is necessary and important to philately. No. It is not.
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Bedrock Of The Community
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Posted 01/16/2018   07:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The cost of expertizing is not the problem. The problem is that there are always stamps that people desire that are priced beyond their reach. It is a cold hard reality. Anthony's, Philip Ryle and others prey upon those people that suspend reality and convince themselves that the $10,000 stamp can be had for $267. Or people that have the means to be competetive in Siegel auctions for instance but are driven to get a "bargain". This is as old as mankind and will not change. The snake needs to be addressed directly, not on a forum which shows people what the snake looks like. The majority of collectors do not participate in any type of organized philately or forums like SCF anyway. I saw what we are up against in a recent Philip Ryle/Cartel thread where several members actually stated that they patronized PR and that there were "bargains to be had" and "they did not see anything criminal about it". Unless we truly band together and stop feeding the monster its diet of money absolutely nothing will change.
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Posted 01/16/2018   08:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I think you are wrong to say that ebay is not necessary to philately. They have brought a lot of collectors into the hobby that would not otherwise be collecting. It is my only source for stamps and probably many others as well. They have brought the prices of stamps way down by introducing competition. It does not matter if SAN or one of it's auctioneers charges a buyer fee, it is still on the collector and I avoid. This bonus fee should be charged to the seller, not the buyer. I will not bid anywhere that has a buyer's fee. There is one local shop in my area. I have been in there once. They were rude to me and seemed ignorant so I have never gone back. I think the hobby would be dead without ebay and the prices of stamps would skyrocket. And I mean sell value not catalog value.

I think the problem lies with Scott numbering system. There should be a minimum amount of a stamp to get a Scott number and it must be able to be identified by any moderate collector. But to find one unique stamp and give it a number is stupid. Grille type, paper type, and slight color variations should be eliminated. Now it is more like, "we have seen a 24c stamp on vertically ribbed paper that is unique, so let's give it a number so everyone wants one." It does not matter to them that only 1 in 1000 collectors can identify it. The average collector does not want that stamp, they want to sell that stamp for the money.
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Edited by jaxom100 - 01/16/2018 08:14 am
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Posted 01/16/2018   08:25 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thirty years ago, buyers' premia seemed iniquitous. Now, I suspect, they are key to keeping many auction houses in business. There is a limit to what a vendor can be charged in commission in a world where ebay has created a ready means to auction items that would once have been sold to an auction house or a second-hand dealer. I love ebay, and I'm grateful to it as a means of selling unwanted items, but, in terms of stamps, I find I get a better deal for what I'm looking for at auction houses, irrespective of the premia.
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Pillar Of The Community
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Posted 01/16/2018   08:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaxom100 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Most collectors do not even look at auction house sales. Try finding one beside Siegel or the dead Regency house. They will say anything about a stamp to get more money for themselves. They are all the rarest of their kind, just ask them or read the #$#% they say about an item.
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Bedrock Of The Community
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Posted 01/16/2018   08:38 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
DrewM- I would think that if you called the PF and told that you were a collector and had 25 items you would like to get certs on you could probably negotiate a package deal for the group. It would certainly be worth a try.

Alas, there is nothing new about dishonest dealers fleecing the unsuspecting, and nothing new about collectors trying to find ways to stop them. All anyone can do is not buy from them and spread the word, but there will always be collectors who don't hear about them, or think they are good to buy from, or even don't care.
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Bedrock Of The Community
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Posted 01/16/2018   08:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rogdcam to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Why is it that these bad sellers focus there efforts on ebay almost exclusively? Is there another site or other sites where they carry on unimpeded for years on end? If not why?
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Bedrock Of The Community
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10755 Posts
Posted 01/16/2018   09:05 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add revcollector to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
It's not just ebay, they have their own website as well. But ebay makes it easy to post a lot of material cheaply. And it's important to remember that the money involved from the stamps section on ebay is VERY tiny compared to the rest of the sales; it's important to us but it's just pocket change to them. That's a big part of why they don't care.
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Posted 01/16/2018   09:07 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cfrphoto to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
History seems to have a way of repeating itself:

http://www.scads.org

Expertizing fees: PSE and PF may charge less to expertize off center or damaged high catalog stamps.

ebay stamp market: Some ebay buyers bid low because "they are afraid they will buy damages stamps they don't want and can't return", a quote from a Jim Kloetzel article some years ago in the Scott Monthly Journal. It is clear that sellers of misidentified or altered stamps have created the perception that ebay has lowered prices in the stamp marketplace. A careful reading of prices realized will show that better fixed price US stamps still sell at prices consistent with the Scott Valuing Guide in the Scott United States Specialized Catalog. However, selling quality stamps on ebay is a challenge because so many potential buyers fail to notice. I have met individuals at stamp shows who are equally frustrated with some fairly prominent show dealers.

Education can help provide stamp collectors with resources desiring better quality stamps. I will be giving a short presentation on identification US Bank Note stamps this evening at the Waltham Stamp Club at the Cardinal Spellman Museum. Also, I recently resurrected PowerPoint presentation "How to Spot Fakes and Forgeries on the Internet".

Self Help: Check sold listings on ebay by category sorted by price from highest to lowest. Searches for uncertified Scott US 519 or 388 coils should help provide a list of sellers to avoid.

Reporting problems: Also, it would not hurt to lodge complaints with ASDA or the APS about bad transactions. Even if the dealer is not currently a member, enough complaints will insure that they won't be able to become one. As an ASDA member and APS Dealer Member, I would prefer to see complaints go directly to those organizations. If the response is unsatisfactory, then report here. If a dealer displays either logo, it should mean something.

Clark Philatelics
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Edited by cfrphoto - 01/16/2018 09:19 am
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
8613 Posts
Posted 01/16/2018   09:15 am  Show Profile Check GeoffHa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GeoffHa to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
jaxom - I know nothing of US auction houses, but the mid-range GB ones I use don't really sit with your description. Flick through these - I think you'll find that the word "rare" is used very sparingly indeed -

http://www.warwickandwarwick.com/au...ns/catalogue

http://www.somersetstampauctions.co...rent-auction
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