Anthony's Llc Dismal PF Report Card = Follow Up To 10/23/17 Discussion

Rodcam,

I am also a big fan of SAN, but as their business model has basically taken over the philatelic auction market, leaving basically ebay and SAN as the major players now in web based auction sites, I'm worried SAN will not police and turn into eBayesque type scamming site. Others in this forum believe that it is not their responsibility or business model to "police". However the reason many collectors use SAN is to stay away from the irresponsible sellers of ebay and the scams. I am part of this group. But it's apparent to me there is a good chance that SAN will start filling up with auctions of unethical sellers. Soon "Anthony's" will be on SAN. Cartel? Will Tom Droege police or just let SAN turn into a site filled with eBayesque scam auctions . Time will tell.

I understand that SAN let's you choose who you bid with... I prefer Siegel and Schuylers etc and stay away from some of the auctions from those with poor reputations. But I've noticed recently that the number of auction houses are exponentially growing on SAN cluttering it up with many no name companies. This could be a problem and turn off to many just as ebay has become to many.

Clark,
I sent the ASDA an email a month ago regarding one of their dealers and referred them to a thread on this forum showing the impact. I did not get any reply or acknowledgment.
Don

rgstamp - I share the same concerns about SAN being degraded by low ethics sellers. My hope is that if ever a firm of Anthony's ilk were to be allowed there firms like Siegel would leave. Not realistic however given the revenue and increased bidder pool that SAN has brought to Siegel and others. It comes down to brand. Does SAN want to keep their cache or do they want to be a Mercedes dealer selling Kia's on out of the same showroom. Hopefully SAN will maintain their brand integrity since it is obviously successful. ebay could care less in part because they are not a philatelic site. You can purchase everything there. Diapers to gold bullion.

Cfrphoto

I have a formal written complaint into ASDA (mailed in on their form to their complaint department). I will post what their response once received. I will preemptively contact APS this week so they are notice of this bad actor. He is not a member there or with any other stamp dealership that claim to make eithic and integrity there cornerstone principal. I hope ASDA is not like ebay! Talk eithics but practice differently (I.e., deleting negative feedbacks and not talking ownship of their business association)

YoP: I am very sorry this experience happened to you. That sucks--no way around it.

ebay is frequently bashed here and in this thread SAN (www.stampauctionnetwork.com) has been suggested as a better substitute. I have purchased from both (For full disclosure: most of my purchases come from ebay) and I can say with full confidence:

ebay has sellers ranging from deceitful to ignorant to novice to superb.
SAN has auction houses that are great from a standpoint of knowledge and integrity (you pay more for those), but there are MANY MANY auction houses on SAN that do sell misidentified stamps. I cannot speculate as to whether they are dishonest like Anthony's and the "cartel" on ebay or just ignorant, but it is easy to find a misidentified stamp on SAN.

Sellers or auction houses that sell certified stamps only (e.g. Siegel's) are the closest you can get to certainty in purchasing stamps. It is also quite costly.

The tier below that are the knowledgable auction houses and sellers who will give details, have a clear track record of integrity, and have clear return/refund policies. I have noticed that most of the sketchy sellers on ebay say "do not accept returns" or have a convoluted return policy (e.g. Anthony's).

I do not want to scare you away from philately. I just want you to know that even auction houses are not above being wrong about their stamps. I personally feel that the best approach is to obtain at least a degree of knowledge about what you are buying--the stampsmarter website is a great place to start. For me, it gives me more confidence in buying as well as increasing my enjoyment of the hobby. Good luck.

Even Siegels make errors. I can show you a couple misidentified plate positions for 1851 1c Franklins that I found, but only a couple. But they probably only posted what they were told. I bet that is the way with all auction houses. I bet that most do not look each lot over closely.

Caviot Emptor.

The difference is that reputable auction houses make mistakes that are not intentional. BTW - Siegel also sells material that does not have certificates. They do tend towards stamps that are certified which is a must for me. Firms like Siegel have expertise which provides me the comfort level which I seek. I purchased a mint og US 17 at auction from them without a certificate for very short money based upon the fact that it was easy to get an extension and it was PF certified as mint original gum. The bottom line is that collectors should not have to approach every purchase with a jaundiced eye and the level of suspicion that is a part of the ebay experience. If ebay miraculously cleaned up their act I would sing their praises. Not going to happen though.

I have beat this drum as much, if not more, than anyone else around. Hobbyists have to do as much discovery on who they buy from as they do on the material they buy. Do NOT buy into eBays marketing that you can buy with confidence from an unknown seller half way around the world. Ask other hobbyists or build a relationship with a new seller over time; starting with small purchases and going until you are comfortable with them. Read their terms and conditions carefully. (For example, when you buy from Anthony's you are agreeing to lose your right to a jury trial. When you buy from NYStamps, you are agreeing that your stamps may be altered or repaired.)

Never assume that you can get your money back. On smaller purchases or with smaller sellers, ebay will typically cover the buyer. But just like the feedbacks, they will side with the seller in a heart beat when larger amount of money are involved.

Does all of these harm our hobby? Of course it does. But unlike the 'olden' days online fraud is more insidious. It is far more easy to start and stop dishonest business relationships, the risks are lower for the unethical. ebay is an open invitation for those who want to take advantage of others. I agree there are plenty of great sellers online, but work and effort are required to find them.
Don

Wow.

That escalated quickly!

OK, first off, YOP, I am glad that you used the PF and I am very sorry that you got burned. That being said, I do hope that this works out in your favor in the end and it sounds like it will. If all else fails I would also contact the ASDA if you have any trouble getting your money back.

As far as the PF goes, they are the absolute gold standard for authenticating US rarities. Period, case closed, end of story. Don't believe me? No problem, just look at how many rare US items are sold WITHOUT certs by the PF. Unless it's a condition rarity with a graded PSE cert, if it's a truly rare item... a used #39, a very valuable cover, a 7R1E, a 78c, a Pigeon Blood Pink with OG, a 3c 1851 Plum, etc... It's got a PFC for a reason.

Now, questions have been raised to market value and pricing.

Let's start with pricing. If you are of the opinion that 25% of Catalog is market value for fault free, truly VF classics, then you are simply misinformed. I'm not saying that you won't occasionally get lucky, but good luck filling your album with quality items at that price level, it won't happen.

As far as pricing of the PF goes, I just picked up a large submission from them last month comprised almost exclusively of #78s and #70s, mostly rare shades or OG copies.

I submitted several stamps with a possible Catalog value of $20,000 each. Determined value (By them) was $400 on a couple of them and I was charged, accordingly, $28 for the cert.

A couple of #70c s that I submitted were determined (Either centered Fine instead of VF or one had a tiny fault) to have values of $1,000 versus $2,250 cat value and I was charged $56 for those certs.

Another unused no gum 78 had a tiny tone spot so they decided it had a value of $500 vs $1,000 submitted and I was charged $28.50.

I can go on and on, the biggest drop was a stamp that certified (78c) with a $20,000 catalog value but had a determined value of $5,000 so the cert cost me $276 versus over $1,000.

So I cannot complain at all (And there now is yet another 78c to add to the census!).

rogdcam said: "The cost of expertizing is not the problem. The problem is that there are always stamps that people desire that are priced beyond their reach. It is a cold hard reality. Anthony's, Philip Ryle and others prey upon those people that suspend reality and convince themselves that the $10,000 stamp can be had for $267. Or people that have the means to be competetive in Siegel auctions for instance but are driven to get a "bargain". This is as old as mankind and will not change."

This is well said and spot on. I would just add that there is a disconnect to me with a person that convinces themselves that they can get a $10,000 stamp for $267 and then balks at spending $500 to get their "bargain" expertized. I think it is because they have already suspended reality and don't want to take the chance they may have to re-enter it. I mean, they know that if the expertizing body finds that the stamp is worth say $25 they would only have to pay $30 or so for the cert and if the stamp is worth $10,000 the $500 fee would be well worth it for their "bargain of a lifetime". So why not submit it? I suspect they sense what the outcome might be.

I said at the outset that my expertizing practice is extreme. I would like to correct any impression that I am a "wealthy" collector. I assure you that is not the case; I will not be making an offer on Bill Gross' 1 cent Z-grill any time soon - lol! Many of the best items in my collection have been bought on stretched out time payment plans with some of the dealers I use or charged on my credit card and paid for over time. Over the last 5 years I have allocated $100/month ($1200 annually) for recertification expense; doing that does not meet the "wealthy" threshold. I spend money in that way as some others would spend in other ways. Middle class yes, wealthy no.

Oh... SAN and ebay and auctions and...

I have found that buying stuff on ebay, depending on the seller, is a bit of a pig in a poke. As far as Anthony's goes, they've been alerted too many times and seeing as in the past few months they have "sold" SEVEN supposedly "used" 315s and that none had certs and that the PF hasn't certified more than, what, 40 or 50 used 315s? Please....

As far as SAN goes, I use them all the time. I am just across the river from Siegel but if I go there it's tolls, traffic, parking, ugh. Or do this while I am work...

billw2, I agree about SAN being great and I remember trying to bid on lots online while also trying to get some work done! Much better now that I am retired; I can follow the whole auction if I want to and don't have to guess when the lots I am interested in come up. Oh, and congrats on that newly discovered 78c - that is special.

**redwoodrandy** I have "turned in" Anthony's two different ways; one is the "report item" black hole that you eluded to. I never realized that this feature was in fact a "black hole", although I had some suspicions. The second, and more effective method was to contact my personal rep that was assigned to me by ebay to service my account. She actually came up to my table at the summer ANA World's Fair of Money, introduced herself, talked to me for almost half an hour and parted by saying, "If you ever need anything, call...." Well, that is something I have taken her up on more than a few times. If you remember, Anthony's ebay user name used to be 1800Anthonys. I objected to that, as ebay had taken a hard-line about conducting business off-site. I didn't think it was fair that this company was allowed to advertise their contact info, and through their user name-no less! Less than 24 hours after I called my rep about this, their user name was changed. So, there are "ears" at ebay; it's just a matter of reaching them. I did ask my rep if I could share her contact info on this forum, but she was not receptive to that idea. Hopefully, some other folks reading this also have reps at ebay, and if so, bend their ears. I have made Anthony's my personal project because they are one of the worst offenders. But, I realize they are not alone. Not to beat a dead horse, but if each of us contacts ebay about one or more of these problem children, eventually something will come of it. Inaction is NOT the answer IMHO.

Now this I have a HUGE problem with.

To comment on lukusw's post....I agree that there are more than a few legitimate sellers on ebay. But in the same breath, there are many problems. Yes, ebay has become a minefield, and to emerge from it unscathed, requires due diligence. To arbitrarily start dealing with all of the seemingly cheap ebay sellers, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do not necessarily agree that Siegel (or any other legitimate auction house) is an expensive alternative. I really believe that you do get what you pay for. Is it possible to acquire a stamp for less than what you would pay from Siegel? Probably. But as an old mentor once taught me, you sometimes pay too much for the right stamp, but you ALWAYS pay too much for the wrong stamp. And hats off to SAN. They are doing a great job. Like everybody else on this forum, I hope that they maintain a higher standard of vetting than ebay, and respond to any concerns raised by their their approved bidders. I agree that both are imperative to sustaining their future.