Pr42 From Apfelbaum's

I would like opinions on the following situation.

Over the years, I have bought many inexpensive stamps from Apfelbaum's. Other than several undisclosed faults here and there, for the most part, I have been pleased. When my holes in the album got a bit more expensive to fill, I required a legitimate expertization cert with every stamp I purchased. I noted that Apfelbaum's had a "lifetime guarantee of genuineness" with every stamp they sold, so I bought a raw #140 from them which appeared sound in all regards. I proceeded to send it to APEX for certification, where the opinion returned was that it had a "fake grille added". When I returned the stamp to Apfelbaum's after our prearranged extension, it was like pulling teeth to get them to reimburse my certification costs, even though their stamp was deemed a fake (which, in my opinion, is MUCH different than an undisclosed fault).

Any way, fast forward to last week when I noticed a PR-42 36c rose special printing on their site which appeared fresh and a attractive. I inquired to Missy Apfelbaum if she would extend my return privilege to include the necessary time to send the stamp to PF for their opinion. She said that was no problem, however they were not going to reimburse me for the cert this time, irrespective of PF's opinion. My question to her and to you all, is what good is a "lifetime guarantee of genuineness" if it is not backed up by an opinion from a respected authenticator? Is it unreasonable to expect a firm to stand behind the accuracy and authenticity of their items offered, and accordingly, put their money where their mouth is? Or, I am I just making an unreasonable request?

I want to add that I run a rare coin firm, and we would never sell an uncertified $2000 coin. And if we hypothetically did, we would always guarantee authenticity and reimburse our customer for certification costs if they were to find out differently. But, I do know that the stamp business does run a bit differently.

Opinions??

In my opinion, worth absolutely nothing.

My opinion to a multi-faceted question - to explain my rationale would take too long:

Apfelbaums are selling, as you put it, a "raw" stamp. You should expect to acquire it at a discount. You incur additional costs to have a third party expertize, but a favourable cert adds value to your purchase.

1) If the stamp returns with a clean cert, all is well.
2) If the stamp returns stating genuine but with undisclosed faults and/or repairs, you are justified to return it but without reimbursement of cert costs. If they want the cert with return, they pay for it.
3) If the stamp is not genuine, or misidentified by the seller, they should reimburse the costs of the cert too, no question.

I will approach this dispassionately in a way that may appear slightly contrarian. Every business wants to buy widgets low, sell them high, and minimize transaction costs in between. If a widget is defective, then a refund of the purchase price is appropriate, and even mandated by law since the seller failed to fulfill its side of the bargain. However, a refund of separate transaction costs that the buyer elected to incur voluntarily is not, and if the seller had to take this risk on every transaction its overall liability to buyers would be unreasonable. In your example, the seller is seeking to minimize its liability by reimbursing only what you paid.

Separately, the seller is communicating to you: genuineness of stamps is a matter of opinion, and not objective fact. The certification authority expresses an opinion, and is not legally or by trade empowered to declare the objective facts.

Make of that attitude of the seller, what you will.

It seems to me that for this stamp you are better served by buying elsewhere, with an existing cert.

I do understand this to be the letter-of-the-law interpretation, however in my business model, I would ALWAYS refund the buyer for certification costs if one of my coins came back altered or counterfeit. I have enough confidence in my ability from 30+ years of numismatics, I think the potential of a refund would pose little risk, let alone be a liability. Furthermore, I don't regard myself as just a widget pusher; I believe that my customers are buying my expertise and knowledge with everyone of my coins. I know that some stamp firms also take this approach. But, many, like Apfelbaum's, apparently do not.

cjpalermo1964's perspective is that of a lawyer. Reedededge's perspective is that of a businessman.

Chris,
I would like to hear your opinion regarding the topic 'a cert is just an opinion'. If the seller has previously used certs from the same organization as a means of marketing and selling items, does this not then allow buyers to use a cert in an action against the seller?
Don

Don,
Yes, in a dispute that would be a good argument; it would be hard for the dealer to deny, credibly, the relevance of certificates in general. But ultimately the seller's prior use of certs in promos would be one more fact, along with the expertizer's expert opinion in a particular certificate or on top of one, that the trier of fact (judge or jury) would have to balance against the seller's own opinions or experts to decide whether the seller had engaged in civil fraud. Thus, the legal problem is that a single certificate is not dispositive on its own. It is a piece of evidence to be weighed.

The business problem for the hobby is that dealers and collectors have not agreed to accept the opinions of one expertizer (or a select group of them) as objective declarations of fact that bind the parties and are not questionable as a means of resolving disputes. We continue to debate the question, "Does a Philatelic Foundation certificate state the truth, or is it merely an opinion?" Until organizational bodies of the hobby (ASDA, APS or others) agree that they want to do business on that basis, dealers and auction houses will continue to have the "escape valve" of, "it's just an opinion." It would better for the hobby to ascribe PF or others the role of a referee in a pre-1986 NFL game (no replay/booth review) - yes, the referee sometimes gets it wrong, but all of us have agreed to respect and obey them. And it may be a strategic issue for the Boards of PF and others that the hobby doesn't treat them this way, after so many years.

Chris

Interesting, thank you.
Don

From article 10 of there terms of sale it looks like all costs for cert fees are to be paid by the buyer.

" IXI. EACH LOT IS SOLD AS GENUINE BUT WHEN IN THE OPINION OF ANY COMPETENT AUTHORITY MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE TO US AND THE PURCHASER (A "MUTUALLY ACCEPTED AUTHORITY") THE LOT IS DECLARED OTHERWISE, THE PURCHASE PRICE WILL BE REFUNDED IN FULL; PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT ADVANCE WRITTEN NOTICE OF INTENTION TO SEND FOR EXPERTIZATION MUST BE SUBMITTED BY BUYER BEFORE THE SALE AND EITHER (i) THE LOT IS RECEIVED BY US WITHIN A PERIOD OF FOUR WEEKS AFTER THE DATE OF THE AUCTION, OR (ii) WHERE AN OPINION IS NOT EXPECTED WITHIN FOUR WEEKS, WRITTEN NOTIFICATION THAT THE LOT HAS BEEN SUBMITTED FOR AN OPINION IS RECEIVED BY US WITHIN THIS PERIOD. ALL EXPENSES INCURRED SHALL BE BORNE BY THE PURCHASER WHETHER OR NOT THE ITEM IS DECLARED GENUINE OR NOT GENUINE OR NOT AS DESCRIBED."

Since this companies opinion has for decades been "we are always right", they will never pay for a cert that says they are wrong. They will always say "that's a matter of opinion", no matter how much evidence supporting that opinion any expert committee puts forth.

My solution with Apfelbaum is not to deal with them anymore. They are my naughty list.

I'm with oldguy. I don't like the way Apfelbaum does business, so I don't do business with them.

It is a discounted seller. Their descriptions are very loose. Do expect some faults here and there, small thin, tear, crease, regum, re-perf, or small number of counterfeit.

This seller is not for beginners or even some experienced collectors. You have to know what you are buying. You must have a keen eye to buy from them.

A fake grill is not a "fault".

I wouldn't describe Apfelbaum as a "discount seller." I don't care how keen your eye is - their pics/scans are frequently blurry, they rarely if ever show the back of the stamp, and they are loose with the accuracy of their descriptions. In short, they have all the common problems of ebay with none of the bargains.

"Why would you want to buy from a seller who sells you 'bad stamps?'"

missy apfelbaum