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A Little Help Needed - Brazil 200r Brazil Liberty Head From 1900

 
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 11/20/2018   8:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add spain_1850 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
OK, working through Brazil is really got me scratching my head on some things. This one I haven't a clue on.

I found the right hand stamp while sorting through my 200R blue Liberty heads. These are, I'm assuming from the 1900 set, with new colors (Scott #161) The RHM is, I believe, 97. Which, if I'm translating the catalog correct, a stamp that has a line circling the shaded effigie in the center. Both of these do have the line, but the stamp on the right has an extra white space between the shaded are and the line circling it.

I see no mention of this type in the RHM catalog and it's the only example I have that looks like this.

My first question might be, are there known forgeries of this stamp?
My second question is: Am I just missing something in the catalog?

Opinions?
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 11/20/2018   8:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Opinion:
The stamp has been produced by a two pass print, even though one colour.
The central vignette shows the result of differing shifts of the frame print,
giving the appearance of a differing stamp.

The best way to solve this type of problem, is to scan both stamps at the same dpi, crop the images to the edge of the design, then toggle the two images with your image software.
If the stamp is of different design, it will become immediately recognisable.

It would appear the central vignette is a little larger in one example, and the print has shifted up slightly.

PS: Scott : "3 types exist of 161, all of which have the frame around the inner oval".

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Edited by rod222 - 11/20/2018 9:05 pm
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 11/20/2018   9:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Here is another, with differing frame (See the arabesque inside the numeral 200)

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1121 Posts
Posted 11/21/2018   9:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add spain_1850 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, this is starting to get frustrating because I cannot find a definitive answer.

Rod, thank you for your input. I was so focused on the RHM catalog I didn't notice the notation in Scott about the 3 types.

From what I am reading, the early printings were indeed printed from 2 plates, one for the frame and one for the vignette. This does account for the registration issues, where the vignette looks shifted and overlaps the outline on one side or another.

However, the one on the right, I don't believe, is exemplifies that. Having gone through ebay, Hipstamp, stamp2go and Google, looking at as many examples of this stamp as I can possibly find, I'm find it's relatively easy to pick out the ones printed from 2 plates. It's also easy to spot the ones that you included, with the extra ornamentation within the numeral "200".

The vignette on the right hand copy appears to be noticeably smaller. Also, the white space is of pretty consistent thickness around the vignette, with no overlapping. I could not find a single copy showing this smaller vignette with a shift of any kind. I have, however, found a few other examples of this same "type", with the exact same white space surrounding the vignette.

Strange thing is that I cannot find anything in the RHM catalog that mentions this.

The listings in the RHM are thus:
97 200 réis, azul e azul, com linha

This, I believe is the type printed from 2 plates. 'Com linha" translates to "with line"

98 200 réis, azul, sem linha

This may be one printed from a single plate, and "sem linha" translates to "no line". I haven't seen a single copy, anywhere, where there was no line. Maybe my copy is this one? Yes, there is a line, but it doesn't touch the vignette anywhere.

103 200 réis, blue, algarismos enfeitados

This one has to be like the one you posted. Algarismos enfeitados" translates to "ornate figures".

Maybe
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 11/21/2018   10:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The vignette on the right hand copy appears to be noticeably smaller. Also, the white space is of pretty consistent thickness around the vignette, with no overlapping. I could not find a single copy showing this smaller vignette with a shift of any kind. I have, however, found a few other examples of this same "type", with the exact same white space surrounding the vignette.

Strange thing is that I cannot find anything in the RHM catalog that mentions this.


I agree, there is one with white space around the oval.
However, is it a change in the size of the vignette, or the frame?

How I deal with frustration:
Just deal with the facts, I make a personal page, mount the examples with descriptions, and press on.
More often than not, the answer arrives further down the track.

Tip: Perhaps try to investigate the Vignette plate only, one can see it on the Bi-colours of this set also. You may be able to determine if there are several sizes of Vignette designs.


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Edited by rod222 - 11/21/2018 10:25 pm
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 11/21/2018   11:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
1850,
I have isolated at least 4 differing Vignette engravings, differing sizes.
Neck at throat straight, neck at throat curved, leaves on bonnet diffferent.

Your scan, with areas of study. 2 different engravings.

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Edited by rod222 - 11/21/2018 11:06 pm
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