Surcharge Stamped Over Hand Cancel

Question about Surcharges over cancels on R160's.

R160 on ebay with the red surcharge reading up, but it looks like theres a hand cancel under the surcharge. Is the surcharge applied after the stamp has been cancelled? Doesn't seem likely since all of the red surcharges look to be machine stamped.

Here's the image from ebay.

Optical illusion.

I have been told that the only way to be absolutely certain which is on top is by viewing with an electron microscope. Try using a hi res scan, at least 600 dpi, and then manipulating the image in a paint program. Emboss and the negative functions are the most useful.

Thanks guys, but I'm not sure I agree with the optical Illusion. I dropped the picture into retroReveal and it appears that the surcharge is stamped over the cancel... There are no shadows of the cancel over the surcharge.

Since the overprint is genuine, and the cancel is a correct one for the period, there is really no other explanation. I have seen this type of illusion before, the overprint is a much stronger print and "drowns" the cancel. So the cancel appears to be under the overprint.

If you look at the edge of the V in REV you can see that the cancel is clearly on top.

Thanks Rev, not disagreeing with you.

I'm just skeptical. No matter how I filter the image the cancel doesn't appear to be on top.

Interesting, might just have to put this one in the Twilight stamp Zone!

See another previous discussion about this issue and how difficult it is to determine simply from an online image:

http://goscf.com/t/62894

Ah! Very nice! Thank you.

It is the Christmas season. No harm in asking Santa for a nice USB Microscope!

Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe there may be a simpler explanation to explain the progression, as follows:

The 1894 issue of $5 Newspaper/Periodical stamp was printed by the Bureau of Engraving & Printing in Washington, D.C. The printing progression would be the ordering agency INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE first, which is the RED overprint, followed by the purchasing company paying the $5 tax, indicated by the BLACK Date/Company indicator, printed over the red "INT. REV. / $5 / DOCUMENTARY".

IF this is not the BEP printing, then the stamps still would have been purchased directly by the BEP/IRS with the printing sequence being the exact same.

retroReveal tells it all ~ this is an amazing tool

If I'm interpreting retroReveal imaging correctly, the Red ink appears to be printed over the Black ink, which would be an incorrect print sequencing. I believe that would make this a fake. Would I be correct REVCOLLECTOR???

I spoke to Bob Noble, one of the top Precancel Specialists, who indicated the sequencing was I explained it earlier. The stamps were first printed with the RED type with stock held in reserve for orders. As orders were received and paid for, they were stamped in BLACK with the DATE and COMPANY INITIALS.

Of course, if they ran out of precancelled $5 stock, the BEP could have reversed the print sequence. However, that seems a bit illogical.

I'll defer to whomever has the best eyesight on this one!

You can't go by retroreveal... or any online scans for that matter.

See the previous discussion linked above.

Unless you can examine the stamp in hand any conclusion is going to be strictly conjecture.

Dan and others are correct, Retroreveal is splitting the color channels. As such, it simply makes the color contrasts 'pop' and will be of no help in determining which color might be 'on top' or 'on bottom' of another.

The logic (and experience) presented by Bart and Dan are the salient points to take away from this thread. It just looks like the red is on top of the cancel.
Don

Maybe this has been pointed out already, but my experience with examining these issues, and others with red overprints, is that the red ink is usually thick and opaque, so as the darker blue ink underneath does not show through. The red overprint is an oil based printing ink to do this effectively and the cancel ink being much thinner, maybe even technically a dye just does not adhere to the red overprint. The overprint resists the cancel.

MANY THANKS, REVENUE COLLECTOR, DON and SOUTHPAW!