US # 104 Used With Incorrect Philatelic Foundation Certification

No one is talking about the Steinway, Lichtenstein, and Dale years. It's the 70's and 80's that matter in this regard. There are plenty of examples from that era. Of course when I pointed one out a while back I got screamed at from almost all sides; people were saying I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about. Or I couldn't possibly see it from the scans. Despite looking at stamps for a living. So if you want proof, start looking at certs from that era, and search for articles from that era, and perhaps you will start seeing examples too.

So, with all due respect, I am having a difficult time understanding what era you are talking about where the attention to detail on expertization was, shall we say lacking. You say this does not apply to the Steinway, Lichtenstein's, and Dales as Chair of the PF expertizing committee so that would include the mid 1940's to about 1967. In the early 1970's the chair was John Hall and the late 1970's we are talking about Neinken. Are those periods in general exempt? If so, I guess you are referring primarily to the era chaired by Rosende. And if Hall and Neinken's reign is not exempt from your concerns about opinion quality then I would ask, in your opinion, after Louise Boyd Dales' time as chair, when is the next time that PF certificates are no longer blanketed with the statement that the certification goals were different then than they are now. We may be talking about apples and oranges but when I say that I do not see a deficiency in the old PF certs-my definition of old certs is pre-Rosende.

To me, certs that are more then 25 years old are "old". Not the oldest, but a very long way from recent. It's not just the chairman, everyone who was working there then is long gone. And there are a LOT more certs still around from that period then there are from the pre-Rosende eras.

I am really having a problem with all the apologists for our good friends at the Foundation. I would assume for a stamp in the range of $100-1000 one expert would review the stamp. One could expect a mistake since it would be a fairly quick study.

However, the fee scale jumps up for a $17,000 stamp ( like #104)suggesting that a number of experts are needed to review the stamp. So my basic question stands: How can a group (3-5 experts) miss the fact that this stamp was doctored? There are only a few logical explanations...they are incompetent or for some reason they decided not to send the stamps to a group of experts.

It would be interesting for either Larry Lyons or Lewis Kaufman to provide an explanation. I doubt if either of the gentlemen would care to share any insights.

As an aside: Someone mentioned that one can check various publications or the internet about problematic certs issued by the Foundation. You all may have better research capabilities than I do but you might want to check on the Orangeburg Coil debacle of about 40 years ago. If my memory is accurate it seems the Foundation certified a pair as an Orangeburg coil pair as being genuine...it wasn't. Rumors have circulated that there was a major settlement since the Orangeburg coil have a value around $300,000.

Obviously, from my comments I do not consider the Foundation to be the Gold Standard as they claim.

"I would assume for a stamp in the range of $100-1000 one expert would review the stamp. One could expect a mistake since it would be a fairly quick study".

You assume incorrectly. Catalog value has zero relevance to how easy or difficult a stamp is to expertize. And no stamp at the PF is ever looked at by only one person, no matter what it is or how easy you might think it is to do. I doubt if only one person looks at any item at APEX or PSE, either. And 40 year old certs have zero relevance to today. No one who looked at anything then is there today, and there are methods and techniques that are used today that did not exist 40 years ago. Obviously you have an axe to grind and a hatred of the PF for your own reasons; no one else would bring up an event of 40 years ago and expect it to be relevant in any way.

Somehow I am missing your point....from your statement you seem to feel that a number of experts review each stamp at the Philatelic Foundation. This seems to reinforce my point...if a number of experts checked this stamp then how could they miss the problem with the left perfs?


It has nothing to do with my liking or disliking this organization. It is not my opinion but Seigel's that points out the stamp was doctored. In my opinion Seigel's is correct.


Question: how can a group of experts miss something this obvious on a $17,000 stamp? I'm fairly good but not considered an expert, yet it took me 10 seconds to see the left perfs were a problem.


It goes back to a question...incompetent or did someone change the normal procedure? Another question: If they changed the normal procedure why?

My comments about the Orangeburg Coils addressed someone's comment that info about old certs with major issues can be researched on the internet. I just found it interesting that Linn's articles about the Orangeburg problem can not be found on the internet.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...9-story.html

The scandal had nothing to do with incompetent expertizing. A PF computer operator issued the bad certs.

That has nothing to do with your crusade.

What are you trying to accomplish with this topic?

We get it. You do not like the PF. What outcome do you seek? You have made your feelings known. Now what? Talk about beating a dead horse.

You keep insisting that they got the perfs wrong from looking at some scans. Meanwhile they actually looked at the stamp. Front and back. Under high magnification, and with a huge reference collection at their disposal. And with a lot of reference literature at their disposal. Perhaps there is a problem with the perfs, and then again perhaps there is not. You have already said that you are not an expert, so perhaps they know something that you do not.

Just how far will someone go when they are sure they have a #314A but then their stamp does not get a clean cert? Let this thread stand as evidence of how far.

21 posts since 2017 and all 21 posts illustrate a seething hatred of PF. No posts about anything else, no posts to help other hobbyists, just an effort to impugn the reputation of PF. When this thread goes quiet for a few weeks, he jumps back in to keep his hate campaign active. If his '314A' had gotten a clean cert none of the 21 posts would exist.

Enough, '608k' can find another community to troll with his vendetta against the PF.
Don

I wonder how long 608K had to look before he finally found something that he thought he might be able to discredit the PF with? He'll probably go after the APS next as they also failed to certify his trimmed #303 as a #314a.

He won't be doing it here.
Don

Thank you Don. Good call.

He has even taken his hatred of the PF to ebay. As explained in the #314a thread, he uses the seller name krdantiques.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-113-Us...AOSwfEdbzKvE

And the cert is definitely altered. Instead of accepting that, he goes into his song and dance about "30 years ago". Anyone can look up this cert and see that it was altered.

http://pfsearch.org/pfsearch/pf_grd...lledfrom=lkp

I see legal action in my crystal ball.