Scott 154 Vs 165 Identification

Since I bought a large US inventory I've gotten deep into Banknote identification. I think I've gotten pretty good at it. I feel very comfortable with soft porous paper and I even feel good about the color differences of the 90c (155 vs 166). But the Black vs gray-black of the 30c stamps I just can't make myself comfortable yet. Occasionally I think I've got it, but then I'm not so sure. The colors are just too close.

My question is, is there any other way to separate a 154 from a 165 besides color? Is there anything about the impression that's different or any other hints people might know?

I'm second guessing myself at this point and I would really like to nail this one down. Thanks.

154 has an I grill, 165 is without grille.

Not factual; both 154 and 165 are ungrilled.

You're thinking of 143 - that's the grilled stamp. 154 and 165 are both on wove paper with no grill.

Rhett , I stand corrected . This is interesting. In my Liberty album
the spaces for 145 thru 155 says " embossed with grille" In the identifier section of Scott Specialized in looking for all examples of example A53 (30 cent Hamilton)my old eyes saw the "I" grill but that is next to 143a which is very rare. In my Scott check list it shows 165 with secret marks. Then in the listing section of Scotts Specialized it states that 165 is without grille and 165c is with grille, but does not state which size grille. I am totally confused.
Now I must go back and check all my National and Continental Bank Note stamps. Thanks I think.

If one ignores the highly rare items, it goes like this for the 30 cent. 143 has a grill, 154 and 165 don't. 190 has soft porous paper. None of them have secret marks.

It seems generally accepted that color is the only means available to discern differences between the two, usually by comparing to a black 143.

Is it fair to say that if a stamp color doesn't match the 143 color it is not a 154?

rlsny,
For identification of the of the 30c Hamilton's the only way to differentiate the 154 from the 165 is by color.

But... you have some help.
The 190 should be easy for you to identify as a "Full Black" stamp.
Take your 190 and put it next to your "stamps in question".

I assume you have more than 2 you are trying to ID.
With the 190, use it as a guide to identify which two different "piles".
One pile will be slightly darker, and the other will be slightly lighter in appearance. Don't worry about the "color definitions" in Scott at this point.
Usually, when IDing color, I recommend finding the point on the stamp that has the most color available in it. But with these blacks, I don't suggest doing that.
There is a better color indicator. Look in the ribbon and the 30 at the bottom of the stamp.
The 154 while appear "lighter" in color in this area, the 165 (ironically) looks darker, but that is your "gray black" at work.
The only other issue to look out for then is are any of your "154's" grilled? If they are then they are either 143 or 143A depending on H or I grilling.

Here is an image of the 3 stamps (don't worry so much about "color match", look instead the clarity of line to the right of the E).
At left is a 143, middle a 165, right 190.



The printing process and the type of paper make a difference to how the strike is defined. Interestingly, the Continental papers seem to provide the best combination of absorption of ink and definition of strike. Note that the National is similar, the best place to see this is in the lines that follow and are contained in the E. In the National, all of the top 5 lines after the E are clear, but the lines inside the E are fainter. In the Continental, those lines are all clear. In the American printing, the lines that follow and are inside the E are very muddy, sometimes even appearing to be fused together. This is a result of the soft porous paper, absorbing the ink more readily, and resulting in bleeding.

R.H. White's color review notes that greenish black, and bluish black exists both in Continental and American printings in some examples where a second colorant is introduced. Copper or was added into the ink, resulting in the greenish tinge, and iron was added resulting in the bluish tinge. However the color naming committee decided on calling this grayish black.

Ranges of gray black examples exist for all three printings.
So relying on specific color is somewhat unreliable. As you work with 100's of copies it will also start to make sense, and I would stress that my mentioning of the review of the printing is not 100% accurate, but will get you there 80%+ of the time. You'll still want to be careful in making a final call.

And no, it is not safe to assume that if the stamp color doesn't match a 143 it's not a 154, for the reasons I mention in the color variations above, particularly grayish black versus black. The 143 in my image above seems to be more grayish black variety, but this is more likely the result of color changeling over the past 150ish years. Black color will fade just like other stamp colors. What you have to learn is, what those fadeings may look like across the family of 30c Hamiltons. I use this test first to get a good feel of the 30c and then begin to evaluate their color.

Regarding secret marks, when Continental took over the contract to produce stamps, they did make new plates for the 24c, 30c and 90c which had secret marks. But it's not clear why these were never used. (There are proofs that have the marks visible on them, but stamps produced by them were still made from the original plates). It then became the difference in inks, as batches never "match" one to another.

If you become a learned student of the papers, this may also help. Note that both National and Continental printed on white wove paper, both in the "thin", but National papers could vary to medium thick, while Continental papers reached to thick. This paper is more easily identified, it appears as a transition paper between the thin white wove, and the heaver soft porous. (The stamp in a luminosity test may seem to have a similar pattern visible in it to that of soft porous, but still the type of thickness that the white wove paper has). If you can identify these (and be clear, not all of the Continental printings are on this type of paper), then you can be certain that those on the thick wove paper are Continental issues. I have 1 or 2 examples that meet this criteria.

Lastly, a note on grills.
Grills do appear on National and Continental banknote issues. On National printings (white wove paper), both H and I grills appear, with H grill being larger (H = 11 to 13 x 14 to 16 points) while I grill is smaller (I = 10 to 11 x 10 to 13 points). These are easily identified. However, I have seen many examples of grills on these issues that are incomplete. As few as 2 rows wide, but maybe only 8 - 10 down. These grills identify the fact that the stamp is a grill issue, but if the full grill cannot be identified, then it must be assumed to be the lower value stamp. I see this a lot in the 2c Jacksons.

J grill appears only on Continental issues, and was an experimental grill that had very limited use. The grill was more aggressive than the H and I grills, and often times punctured the stamp. It is most widely seen on the 5c Taylor, but I have seen it on the 6c Lincoln and it is known on the 30c Hamilton (unique).



The image above is from a J grill essay. You can see how several of the grill points result in a square hole in the stamp.
It is my opinion that less than 1,000 J grill appear on the Taylor, and fewer on other denominations, though I don't have an exact census, this is an estimation.

Thank you so much for this detailed description. I'm going to review a bunch of them now. This should really help me build my experience. Great information.

OK, here's a pass at trying to identify a bunch of them. Looking at the ribbon at the bottom was a very helpful clue. I know color on computer screens is iffy, but see if you see any questionable decisions.

Top row is a certified 190
Next row are certified 143 (reperf), 154, 165

Everything directly below the 154 I've identified as a 154.
Everything below and to the right of the 165 I've identified as a 165.

I'm least confident on the two stamps on the second to last row, but it's my best shot.

From what I can see in your group here, I think you've gotten most of it down. The 190's should be no question.
Did you do a luminosity check on the others?
While it's hard to tell, I see where your concern on the 2nd to last row is. I believe they are both the same, and I believe they are both 165.
In these images the appear at least to have that grenish tinge from the copper in the ink colorant. Which you only see in the 165 and 190 and if we now they are not 190's then...
You've done well.
What I recommend is, set these aside for a week or two.
Then go back and ID them again. See if you still arrive at the same conclusion, or if there is confusion.
Do this enough times (you've got a large enough sample) and you'll start to recognize them each time.
Some people find the 90c Perry's to be the toughest to ID, but for me I think it is the 30c Hamilton's. Then as you advance, start to look at the inks and how they interact with the paper. This is more difficult approach initially, but over time when you combine it with the color you'll ID them perfectly every time.

And this is why the call me Classic Philatelist. :)
My favorite area is the Banknote issues.

Thanks for your comments. I'm glad someone out there enjoys Banknotes. Good suggestions all. I did the luminosity test and there is one stamp that I think might be that intermediate paper type you mentioned. It almost looks like soft porous, but not quite. It's the one with the red cancel smack in the middle of the page. These buggers are tricky. Thanks again.

These are very difficult stamp to identify accurately. It is important to first learn how to identify the paper types. I see several stamps in there that are almost guaranteed to be on soft paper. According to your description there is only supposed to be one soft paper stamp in your image.

Winston,
That's not the way I read it. He is saying he has 1 143, then 4 154's (3 below his 154 that is known), 5 165's (4 below the 165 that is known), everything else (under the 190) is a 190.
I have assumed he has his paper types right, but that said, the bottom row first looks like a 190 to me, but with images these small, it is too hard to tell.
(Wondered when you were going to chime in on this. :)

I think I have it right. The first red flag is the stamp in the 154 column with ellipse cancel... I don't think that is even possible. The one under that also appears to be on soft paper. As usual, good images of the back would help.