The Philatelic Foundation Grading Upgrade

I have seen countless really nice stamps that would grade between 80 and 90 that most collectors would be very happy to own. Anyone who wants to can create a very nice collection without going bonkers.

The US stamp market and its current focus on numeric grading by bodies like PSE/PF is definitely interesting and worth discussing pros/cons. But good to keep in mind it is quite unique & not representative of the stamp market in most other countries.

Rev - Why will they be sorry later? Based upon what? Every issue's price history/performace/quantity data is available in order to make an informed decision. I do not believe that stamps are an investment but I would rather have more information then less information when spending money.

The issues of breaking up multiples and people paying obscene amounts for common stamps are very visible and garner all of the attention because they can be quite shocking. The fact is though that those items are a tiny fraction of graded stamps and cloud the positive aspects of grading because they trigger strong emotions in people, mostly negative.

As far as grading being more of a non-collectors tool that is rather a snobbish pov. Just because you like grade 98's does not mean that you are not a collector that wanted Superb stamps before grading and would not want them if grading did not exist now.

If you still want to collect non-graded stamps based solely upon your philatelic expertise and assessment than have at it but be prepared to compete with other collectors that are bidding based upon what grade those stamps will be assigned.

The market has changed and it is not going to revert to what it was.

All that has changed is there are third parties making money off of a numbering system. Collectors have ALWAYS wanted very well centered stamps; that was as true 80 years ago as now. And they always brought much higher prices. A look at old auction catalogs and old stamp ads will confirm that very quickly. Not usually at the levels they are now, but decidedly higher then less well centered items.
A look at the graded sales of the last several years will certainly show losses in a fair number of items. There was a major graded collection that was sold a few years ago and the rumor is that the owner lost $3 million on the sale, which to my knowledge was never denied. Buying at the top of the market is a very poor way to expect to make money in the future. The market is too volatile.

I have a few graded stamps, but I wonder about the consistency of the standards that they apply, at least with regard to centering. I have a 90 stamp that looks more centered than a 95, both having certs within a few years of each other. I also have an 80 stamp that, to my unpracticed eye, looks like no more than a F-VF. Is the size of the margins important so that, for a stamp with relatively large margins, more leeway is allowed to have the design slightly off to one side? Do they take into consideration the difficulty of finding well centered examples of certain stamps ("for this issue" as the auction catalogs like to say")? I don't have any "difficult" stamps with grades, but just curious.

"Eye appeal" (color, sharpness of impression etc.) is a factor as are perforation issues and so on. There can be grades that are head scratchers. I was just looking at a MNH 400A graded 85 that did not have the centering of other 85's (it was very obvious) but the color and impression were amazing.

That is one of the problems. It has long been felt by some that, at least back in the day, PSE tended to give better grades to those who sent in large numbers of submissions. That someone who sent in 5 stamps a year might not get the same grades for equivalent stamps as someone who sent in 500 stamps a year. How true it actually was is unknown, but there was certainly grumbling to that effect.

These are the certs that I mentioned. Different stamps for the 90 and 95, but the 90 looks slightly more centered to me. Re the PF cert, the stamp looks low to me. And it sounds like they take more than centering into consideration but I don't find the 95 stamp more appealing. Maybe I'm too picky and/or my eyesight is poor, so I guess I shouldn't get into the grading business. The difference in catalog values (given that the real world prices may bear no relation) can be large between a 90 and 95 - 210 vs 600 for the MNH 415 and 625 vs 950 for the MH 440.

To me those are two 90's and an 80.

I think this is because of the sharing of information on what is out there. Some issues with extremely high grades are actually _really_hard to find and folks have discovered this. With pre-internet transactions the information about availability was way more opaque to collectors, particularly based on region. Now location is largely irrelevant as the data is observable. Some of it is exploitative-yes - specifically around more modern issues.

Sometimes you can find early thru mid 1900s sheets that have gems on them that are worth more than the sheet of cheap stamps collectively. I suspect that is an evolving business model now for some. Example - you can buy a sheet of overrun country stamps for like $10, and potentially parse the best specimens for multifold ROI and rinse and repeat. Folks looking to buy these high grade stamps, want YOU to go through the trouble of finding them, certing them. They just want the turnkey buy.

Personally, while I get peoples infatuations with grades, for my personal budget - I rather acquire a broader collection of 80->95 than a smaller collection of 95->gem. I don't put grades into consideration in general because it is hard enough to find a sample in the first place in my collecting areas.

No one is buying graded Overrun Countries these days. I have seen 10-15 graded and slabbed tossed into large lots just to try to make them disappear. Frankly, finding an Overrun Country stamp from any country that actually has perfs cutting in would be a much rarer find. I have never seen one in 60 years of collecting. ABNCO was very careful.

Condition is the most important factor in how much a collectible is worth. Nobody, be it a serious collector or outside speculator, will not want to put large amounts of money into collectibles, unless they can guarantee condition. Speculators in particular (who may not know much about stamp collecting) need a standard that does the grading work for them and that the philatelic community respects. Having such a standard also makes rare stamps fungible, allows you to directly compare realizations between stamps to establish an actual market value for a stamp in a specific grade, and makes it easier to make a market for high-grade stamps which brings in money which (arguably) helps the hobby. That last bit is a leap, but let's say it's true for now.





I do too. This is a serious issue for graded stamps. They are subjective; different graders on a different day might give you a slightly better or worse grade, and people can and do resubmit for better grades. I'm not against graded stamps in principle -- the arguments "for" grading that I wrote above are true -- but this a serious, serious issue, and if stamp grading is to actually succeed in the long run it has to be addressed.

The fact that a stamp's condition can change over time means that old grades will eventually have to be re-evaluated, much as stamps with old certs are re-expertised. If a 95 actually can be a 90 or a 98 depending on who's looking at it, collectors and speculators alike should also be aware that the stamp for which they paid 98 money might sell for 90 or 95 money in twenty years; assuming numeric grading is still a thing then, of course. And even if stamp prices have gone up then, they'll still lose money because the numeric grade they relied on is actually subjective and not reality.

We also don't want the situation that occurred with the coin graders in the 1990s to arise: grade inflation (and later, deflation). Basically, with coins in the late 80s/early 90s, there was an "easy" grading service and a "hard" grading service. A coin that the "hard" grading service gave an MS-65 might get MS-67 from the "easy" grading service. For a while the market could adjust, the "easy" graded coins were knocked down, the "hard" graded coins were priced high.

But the "easy" grading service got the most coins submitted, because people knew they'd get the better grade. And they made a ton of money on commissions, while the "hard" grading service wasn't even turning a profit. Soon, the "hard" grading service relaxed its standards, and even became easier than the "easy" service. "Easy" grading was what the market wanted, after all. It was a quick race to the bottom, and soon the grades meant nothing at all, because both services were ridiculously "easy" and changed their standards from month to month. Needless to say the prices of high-grade slabbed coins dropped like a rock. This problem occurred even between specific graders at a single service (there were ways to game the system even at the "hard" grading service, such as resubmitting until you got one of the easier graders, thereby having both the cachet of the "hard" service but the "easy" high grade), and there's nothing stopping it from happening again with stamps. Even if there is no specific market pressure, standards can and will drift over time just because there are subjective elements involved.

And to be frank, I don't support speculation in the hobby. People speculating in stamp prices, unless they are paying six or seven figures for the world-class rarities that don't need a PSE number to sell for high prices, are dreaming. We don't need to attract speculation to the hobby, it drives people out when things turn south, and creates a circus that draws negative publicity. Collect for fun, don't mix your hobby with money.

There is also the "destroying unique multiples" thing, which is a terrible philatelic sin.

IMO, as a collector, you have the knowledge to determine yourself whether a stamp's condition is acceptable to you. Your eyes are the only grading instrument that you need. A stamp grading service can be a useful tool that serves the hobby, but at least as they stand now come with a number of pitfalls that should be acknowledged.

https://stampauctionnetwork.com/Get...m=&SrchName=

3 years ago - $425 for encapsulated set, not part of a larger lot. There are others. Was my first hit. This is for stamps that sell. The stamps sell $10/50 per sheet RETAIL. Even if it were $20 to get s stamp encapsulated (perhaps you can get bulk discounts, if this was indeed your business), its still 100% above and beyond at $450.

I have been seeing more and more common moderns being sold as gems with PSE certs. Clearly there is a market for this, or we wouldn't be seeing it active bidders. Even if some percentage go unsold, the fact that some are moving at these valuations is mind blowing.

Grading has already succeeded. It isn't a fad, and it isn't a scheme by those greedy s over at PSE. I would not get a grade on a stamp I wouldn't get a ungraded cert on. I ask for a grade if the stamp would score an 80 or above. If I buy a stamp with a recent ungraded cert, I don't sent it in for a grade unless I think there is a shot that it would get a 95 (and the recent deal at PF had me looking at my PF-certed stamps to see if any were worth grading.) I don't think there are a ton of collectors chasing the absolute top grades on stamps, but some do, and that's cool. The scorn and disdain from many folks here towards those that want to collect that way is at least distasteful. And the assumption that graded certs always come with slabbing or that those that appreciate grading only collect certificates is ignorant and elitist. You don't have to collect the way anyone else does - that's one of the things that makes our hobby great.

Grading solves the problem of consistency. Arguing that grading needs to address this problem is odd, since that is the point of grading in the 1st place. Is all grading done perfectly? No, but they are really close in my experience.

I agree that the desecration of multiples is regrettable, especially of imperfs that require the destruction of 8 other stamps to get a "gem." But that has always happened.

The fact that certs (graded or otherwise) only represents the stamp at that point in time is true, but it is a dumb argument an argument against grading. It is an argument against certificates at all. If you buy any stamp with a cert, you have to check the stamp to make sure the cert is legit (faking certs is way easier than faking a stamp, and I'm shocked we don't see more of it), and that the stamp is still in the condition stated on the cert. This is why a recent cert is better than an old cert.

Someone mentioned that a prominent collector who liked high-quality stamps lost a bunch of money on his graded stamps. You are probably talking about Nick Kirke. He collected at the very tip top end of the quality scale. Just like any other part of stamp collecting, you are going to go up and down with the market. I think the market for the nose-bleed quality stamps has cooled a bit (probably it was a bit of a bubble), but the fact that cheap stamps stay cheap and expensive stamps get more expensive is going to be true for our lifetimes. And the fact that Kirke got graded certs for his stamps, is irrelevant to whether he made or lost money on his collection. He had awesome stamps (I own a few that used to belong to him), and they were awesome with or without the graded certs.

One of the reasons all of us should appreciate grading is that is oils the machinery of buying and selling stamps - the overhead on the transactions is why stamps expensive to buy and cheap to sell (for a collector). When buyer and seller has a third party that attests to not only the authenticity, but also to the quality, transactions are quicker and cheaper. This is better for collectors not only from a financial perspective, but also from a time perspective - you can get what you want without necessarily having to inspect the stamp in detail before buying it (so you can use the Internet to buy).

You are making an incorrect assumption that the frequency of breaking up multiples stays the same. I agree with Rev that this is not the case; as grading become more popular it is obvious that the frequency of breaking up multiples increases.

In the same way no one should have distain for folks who collect graded stamps, no one should have distain for folks who have ethical reasons for not supporting the practice.
Don