A Discrepancy On A Bill Langs Listing?

Not sure what details they would add. Do you mean saying things like, "examined under UV light" or "dipped in fluid to check for hidden flaws," or "compared to reference copies?"

Details such as a brief summary of each phase of the process.....details about how they came to their conclusion for grading and identifying....even giving the individual scores from each step of the way, the overall score. There is so much more that the company can do on their end to help ensure anyone who goes through the process that any and all items are protected. Example.... When I send out an autograph to be authenticated and graded, I send it to an actual handwriting expert. When I get the autograph back, there is a detailed report explaining all of the different reference materials that were used. There are photos of the handwriting samples that were used to compare against my sample. Attached to the back of the report, is the certificate he issues. I get more details from him than I do from my doctor when they go over lab work. I guess I expected it to be the same.

If a dealer declares a grade and shows a cert for a lower grade then I do not see anything inconsistent or wrong. The grade is one company's opinion and the seller provided his opinion. We know some people shop for certs (or just not show them) since they know some buyers rely on them religiously.

The best dealer would show it and then state why they disagree with the grading on the cert.

This is why I avoid expensive stamps.

How much do you typically pay for this service? Stamp certificates typically are not expensive, so the economic model does not support this level of reporting. If it was done, it might loook like my paper on Academia.edu here.

https://www.academia.edu/36076139/A...n_Laid_Paper

In stamps, I tend to think that the expertizers want to preserve what they do as a mystery. 80% of what they do can be achieved by a serious collector willing to invest time in research, education and interchange with others. 20% probably can't; things like an extensive reference collection plus pure breadth of experience will be out of reach for most and a key value-add for expertizers.

Angore: I generally agree with your final conclusion but I have purchased expensive stamps, including some with very early PF certificates. I also think that expertize toon, far from being the purely scientific process that one of the well known organizations would lead you to believe, is a very much personal affair including some of the biases that the expertize, being human him or herself brings to the process. If you look at some of the PSE certificates displayed, one comes away with the idea that a particular expertizer might be fixated on reperfing for example; another regumming. Bill Weiss, god rest his soul, approached 19th century stamps with the idea that virtually all stamps of that era were either flawed and doctored and I would say, having looked at a tremendous number of certs, that his percentage for absolutely clean opinions was lower than for APEX, PSE or PF. I will not offer an opinion of whether he was over calling or not but the number of times a cert of his would include the word "tiny" to describe a flaw like a perf or corner crease is truly astounding.. this discussion gives you a jaded opinion of the entire process.

J Baker:—what kind of autographs do you collect? I have extensive experience with historical autographs. As you are probably aware, there is no expertizing organization for historical autographs the way PF, PSE and APEX would be for stamps. And I am also not referring to Beckett or PSA which might be an authority on sports cards and sports memorabilia. No serious collector of historical autographs would ever think of using them the way stamp collectors use PF, PSE and APEX. With historical autographs, you become your own expert. That and dealing with well known and honest dealers. But if you don't become an expert in your own right, absent the title, then you really have no business collecting serious autographs.

When you go to a car show, you are paying others for their opinions. Car show judging has a lot of variance. At some car shows, the judges are clearly identified and when they judge your car they use an extensive judging checklist. After the awards are done, the car owners get the judging sheet and can learn exactly what was examined and areas where the deficiencies in their car were noted.

But at other shows, the judges literally hide from the car owners and at the end of the show you get absolutely no feedback. You walk away learning nothing, none the wiser for spending your money on their opinion.
Don

Speaking of car show judging, I was at a car show and a friend had his very well done car in the show but he did not get an award. The judge reportedly preferred muscle cars. Many complained and the friend got a special award. The following year the judging sheet improved.

Everyone should get a trophy.

The ebay listing mentioned at the beginning of this topic has now been changed and mentions the corner crease.

...and the price is down to $250.

Philazilla...offer him $175 and if he bites, this thread will have come full circle !

(I just asked him if this stamp comes with a cert...)

I bet Posner (or more likely Bobby Prager) called up Langs.

This is a great example of where grading does start to make no sense at times. The stamp is graded 85. Current SMQ value is $175. That is for a fault free stamp. An 85 is an 85 is an 85. There is not supposed to be an 85 with a creased corner. The cert should be "clean". There is no 85 that would have been 95 but there is a corner crease. Below is PSE's explanation of grading points. This stamp would have had to have started with 110 points since they state that they deduct 25 points for minor defects. IMHO the juice is not worth the squeeze in the case of this stamp. No? It is not a scarce stamp and it would pay in the long run to wait for one with a "clean" cert?

Overall Numeric Grade - Finally, PSE's experts consider the appearance and soundness of the stamp and assign an overall numeric grade. The scale ranges from 10 to 100, 100 representing a stamp in flawless Gem condition. Twenty-five points are deducted straightaway for minor defects and 50 points for significant defects. Jumbo qualifiers (J) can be added after the numerical grade by PSE's experts in the event that the stamp falls into the proper category based on centering and condition, but has exceedingly large margins in comparison to the average of that stamp.
The basis for the PSE Standardized Philatelic Grading Scale is a follows.
GEM - 100
Superb - 98
XF/S - 95
XF - 90
VF/XF - 85
VF - 80
F/VF - 75
F - 70

VG/F - 60
VG - 50
G/VG- 40
G - 30
F/G - 20
F - 10
P - 5
n

Mr. Lang's response to my query:

"I was recently informed on and off the chat boards that this stamp had been graded net 85 due to the hard to find tiny corner crease .. you can obtain a duplicate cert from pse... I can provide the cert number...

The problem with chat boards is that 98% of the accusatory postings are simply one sided witch hunts with snipers hidden in the trees

Regards,

Bill"

That is one way to look at "chat boards". Obviously Bill is a fellow who understands that the hobby has transitioned to include a significant online segment. (He has built an online business.) I would think that he would then also understand the importance of online networking and marketing outreach. So instead of insulting communities like this, why not participate and build support?

Would Bill write off stamp shows as 'one-sided witch hunts' if someone walked up to his booth and had some negative feedback? Negativity and grumpy old men have no location boundaries, they exist is any environment.

If a person simply wants to be lazy and not bother with online networking and marketing efforts, then just be honest and admit it but do not condemn entire communities with sweeping generalizations. Online communities like this support the hobby and are helping grow it; this in turn helps put money in his pocket.

So instead of driving even more bad feelings and adversarial relationships, in my opinion a better business approach would be to respond to feedback and participate.
Don

Or a judge. Like here, grading can be very subjective even with lots of rules.