Show Your US 1851-57 Imperforate Stamps

Thank you NicholasC, it has been my pleasure sharing these covers, plating them and seeing them coming alive again on this Forums. keeping them tucked away in albums only to be looked at once in a while, isn't good. Thank you Sir for the kind words.

Tricky one due to poor condition and difficult color.

I see:

- Relief B
- Two Inner lines
- 1 line recut in bottom right triangle

I think this might be 50R2E or 50R2L, but I cannot tell early vs. late.

Thoughts?

This one looks like 2L3. Guide dot at upper right, two inner lines, and relief B.

Thanks, Classic Coins! For the email, i'll think about it. Maybe eventually. Thanks for helping me!

I don't have my Skinner book handy, but it does look like the New York City 11-bar grid.
The EDU for that I believe is July 17, 1851. The EDU for Plate 1i is July 12, 1851.

So that does not eliminate Plate 1i from consideration - just based upon cancel of course.

I just got the Skinner book yesterday, which is why I asked about that specific cancel. The cancel did indeed start being used in July 1851, but it's unclear for how long. I'm not so much concerned about 1E vs 1i plate, but rather more that this stamp is a #10. I'd still like to confirm the actual position so I can record it. IMHO, it looks more like 1E.

Hi NicholasC,

The stamp you tentatively plated as 50R2E or 50R2L definitely isn't a #10A. The low-quality ink makes me certain of it. Hopefully a direct comparison of the stamp with your 10s and 10As will reinforce this for you. I haven't confirmed the position.

Nice job plating the 2L3.

I'm sure someone will help you plate it.

While on the subject, my understanding is this cover is the EDU of the NYC 11-bar grid.
July 17, 1851.

The stamp is Orange Brown, position 7L1E.

@Classic Coins, thank you.

I don't have any #10s yet, unless that stamp with the 11-bar grid cancel turns out to be plate 1E or plate 1i. I was going to grab some more pictures and try to explain why I think it is a #10 and also try to explain why I think it is plate 1E rather than 1i.

I have only one confirmed #10A (that MAR 18 CDS cancel from several weeks ago). There is another I posted within the past week or so that I also think is #10A, but it is not yet confirmed. I will go back to that one as well and try to explain why. Here's the link to that other potential #10A:

https://goscf.com/t/72775&whichpage=228#824748

For that 50R2x stamp, at least what I think is that position, I absolutely agree the color and quality just isn't there to be a #10A. That said, I don't know enough about the colors to explain why it is the color that it is, unless it is just due to age and not being properly cared for. Maybe it is a claret?

I don't want all the answers, but if there an assumption I have made that is wrong, just let me know it's wrong and I will try again.

Thanks again for all your help.

@txstamp, thank you. Nice cover. For my potential #10, the color looks like my only confirmed #10A, but it's not as orange brown as I think might be normal. I have another potential #10A that I posted several days ago and it is very similar in color. It could be that my scanner settings give an image that is a bit different than seeing in person.

Note: Here's the link to my #10A that was confirmed back in December. The 3rd scan there is using the same settings that I have been using for recent posts.

https://goscf.com/t/72775&whichpage=216#817593

Here's my potential #10A again with my more detailed anlysis.

1. Relief A since the outside oval above the head is not thin and has no breaks and also there is a notch in the inside oval at the appropriate location. The Relief A characteristics also exist at the bottom of the oval.

2. There are 2 recuts in upper left triangle.

3. Two inner lines.

These 3 combinations in the wizard yield only 6 stamps. Three are from plate 2E (38L, 72L, 20R) and one is from 1L (75R) and two are from 2L (38L and 20R).

Other features include:

- Recut at the top of top right diamond block. This is indicative of plate 2E and plate 0.

- The inner frame lines are heavy as are the outer frames lines. These features are also indicative of plate 2E and plate 0.

- The top label has a heavy (recut?) line across the top.

- The right outside frame line extends just a tad below the bottom frame line.

So, the elimination game.

75R1L is ruled out because it does not have the recut at top of diamond block.

38L2L is ruled out because both the recut at the top of the label block does not extend as far from right to left and the right outside frame line does not extend below the bottom frame line. Other features are also different, such as the spacing between the bottom frame line and the bottom label.

20R2L is ruled out because no recut in upper right diamond block or top label.

38L2E is ruled out because the outside right frame line does not extend below bottom frame. There are also spacing differences between with bottom frame line and right outside frame line compared to their adjacent features.

20R2E is ruled out for the same reasons.

Therefore, it must be 72L2E and Scott #10A. The chase image doesn't show as heavy an inking, but the characteristics of the top right diamond block, the top label, the right outside frame line extending just a bit below the bottom frame, the spacing on the bottom frame line, etc. are all a match.

Another key point is that the adjoining stamp in my image shows the top and left frame line with the corner gap. It is a match for 82L2E.

Now for the detailed analysis of my potential #10.

This stamp was more difficult to try and identify. Instead of using the features of the stamp itself, I went searching for the adjacent stamp where there are three different things of interest. First, the lower right guide dot sitting on the bottom frame line pretty much centered on the left corner of the lower right diamond block. Then, both corners of the bottom frame line have breaks with the outer frame line.

After my search, the best positions for the adjacent stamp were:

69R1E where the Chase image shows a very similar guide dot and the break in the lower right corner where bottom frame line meets right outside frame line. It's hard to tell on the Chase image if the bottom left corner has a break. The stampsmarter site has no images of this position. So, although I don't like using the color image, I can say that the color image on stampplating.com does show the same guide dot and both breaks in the corners.

69R1i where the Chase image shows a similar guide dot, a clear break in the left corner and what could be a break in the right corner.

Just for grins, I looked at 69R1L because of lessons I learned that I must also look at the same position in the late plate. The guide dot there is just a bit off as it seems to straddle the bottom frame line, and also the lower right corner where the frame lines meet doesn't show a potential break.

So. that leaves 79R1E and 79R1i as the potential positions.

For my stamp, the features to look for matches include:
- relief A
- no inner lines
- upper left corner gap
- pinching of top frame line starting at middle of U and ending toward end of the P
- right outside frame line clearly starts to bend out starting from bottom of top right diamond block up to the top frame line. also looks like there is a small gap in the corner
- bottom frame line pinches up between left diamond block and bottom label, between R and E, gets closer under C, and then pinches again at bottom of T and S before widening a bit at the end.

79R1E Chase image looks very similar across the top. Both corners and top frame line gaps. The bottom frame line is harder to tell. The pinching is definitely there at the bottom of T and S. The other pinching is not conclusive. There is nothing I can see that rules it out. One thing I do see that looks like a match is the angled bottom corner of the bottom left diamond block.

79R1i Chase image also looks very similar across the top. The corner gaps here are more obvious and a better match. The bottom frame line is also hard to tell. Definitely has the pinching at bottom of T and S. And, as like the above, the other pinching is not conclusive. What bothers me about this position is that the diamond blocks themselves, upper left, lower left, and bottom right seem off. The top left and bottom left appear to be too close to the labels.

It's so difficult to pick one vs. the other. Maybe they are both wrong! Anyway, going with the image that has less things that look different to me, I have go with plate 1E. If I am wrong and it is 1i, then that is fine, too! It will be my first #10. If both of these are wrong, then I have no clue what I am missing.

Hi NicholasC,

Nice job plating the 72L2E. I agree with your plating. A couple of notes:

Although traces of the 2-line recut in the UL triangle are still visible on 72L2L, Chase listed it as one of the positions "on which the recutting noted on the early state has become more or less badly blurred (sometimes so as hardly to be distinguishable)." Thus, 72L2L is not currently classified as a 2-line recut in the Plating Wizard.

The frame lines and inner lines are much weaker on 72L2L than on the early state due to the effects of re-entry. This helps confirm your stamp is early state without seeing the orange brown color in person.

So now you have at least two 10As and one 10 (including the stamp with the New York City 11-bar grid) to use for separating OBs from non-OBs. The 1851 orange brown ink was, and is, resilient compared to most of the 11/11A ink formulas, so 10s and 10As retain their color quite well. The color on all three of your confirmed OBs looks rich and bold. Your 50R2L candidate is an excellent example of an 11A ink that became degraded and discolored over the years due to poor ink resilience. Most, if not all, 11/11A colors discolored easily if exposed to common contaminants.

Hi Classic,

Thank you once again for reviewing my posts.

What you mentioned about Chase dropping a recut for the late plate rings a bell. I believe you or @ioagoa said it before in this topic, probably for some other position, but using the same logic.

I'm thrilled to have found a #10 and #10A in this small horde of 3c imperforates I acquired a few weeks ago. There are a couple more potential OBs, but the stamps lack features and have missing sides in many cases that is making plating them a nightmare. That said, what I believe is another #10 will be in my mailbox soon. It was offered as a #10 and I plated it before bidding. Just hope I'm right. If it is a #10, then I'll have one for my Scott National and one for my Steiner pages.

Nick

Hi Nicholas C --

Regarding separating out stamps from plates 1E versus 1i -- here is a link to a posting I made in this thread back on 12/3/2022 in which I offered some thoughts on the subject -- and which you may find of interest in determining the state of the plate for your #10 with the 11 bar NYDM 51-1 cancel. The posting is on page 169 -- and the link is here:

https://goscf.com/t/72775&whichpage=169#757460

I know that I have made plenty of other postings in this thread about the whole 1E versus 1i subject -- but I think the link to the above posting will provide a good summary of the subject.

If you want to send me a high resolution scan -- meaning 1200 dpi with zero compression -- please message me off board using the SCF message utility -- and I will be happy to take a look and let you know my opinion as to the state of the plate.

Regards // ioagoa