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Forgeries/Reprints/Facimiles Of Classic German States Stamps

 
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United States
43 Posts
Posted 09/15/2020   3:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add ehall928 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I know nothing more than my Scott's catalog about these stamps but they do all seem quite "fishy". None of them have "np" on the back but I assume that they are all fakes. Any opinions?





I can upload better images of any individual stamp if so requested and thank you in advance for your assistance.

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United States
763 Posts
Posted 09/15/2020   6:29 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
First row, all forgeries. Second row, the last stamp is a forgery. Not entirely sure about the 2 3-groschen stamps; I would need better images. But the cancels don't sit well with me.
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United States
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Posted 09/15/2020   7:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ehall928 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I saw extra frame lines near where the stamps were cut (on the two second row 3 gr stamps) so I assume these are forgeries too :)

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Posted 09/16/2020   11:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
This may be asking too much, but as a novice in old German States I'd enjoy and appreciate knowing what, for each of these stamps, has led to the conclusion that they're likely forgeries.
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Posted 09/16/2020   1:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Germania to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
The first stamp is the Oldenburg 1/2 Grosch. The first image is the forgery and the second one is genuine.



There are a lot of differences. Big ones are the shape of the crowns and the shape of the ribbons above and below the denominations.

The second stamp is the Hannover 1/15 Thaler. The first image is the forgery and the second one is genuine.



The crowns are different as is the unicorn.

There are a lot of resources available for Old German States collectors. The APRL has an on-line catalog of available literature.
http://catalog.stamplibrary.org/Inm...ch&xm=1&xe=2
Old German States stamps have a multitude of forgeries but most can be distinguished with the right reference material. Only very few absolutely require expertization and a certificate to ensure genuineness. (Not including postmarks - that's a whole other kettle of fish!)
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Posted 09/16/2020   3:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add EMaxim to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Germania. This is an area I hope to get into more deeply. And, as you say, access to good reference material is (as always) essential.
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Posted 10/08/2020   12:02 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DrewM to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
You're right to be suspicious. Old stamps that are somewhat rare and have value often got reproduced to sell to collectors who couldn't afford the real ones. From what I've read, this sometimes was done as a "service" to collectors with both seller and buyer knowing the stamp was not genuine. Such stamps were often too new-looking to be genuine, too well centered, too clean, and so on. But since everyone knew they weren't real, they were kind of like play money and just got used to fill an empty album space maybe with no harm intended. There are a lot of such stamps for countries like Japan where it seems like 90% of the old stamps you see were made as copies to sell to collectors or tourists or anyone else who would buy them.

Unfortunately, a lot of such stamps weren't marked clearly as "fake," "copy," or any other warning. Then, through the sale of a collection or otherwise, they eventually got into the stamp collecting mainstream where we now wonder if they're real. Often these stamps are clearly fake due to being too perfect or design elements are not correct or the color is off -- or other problems. This is easiest to notice when the stamp is compared to a real stamp. Sometimes it's immediately obvious as it is with some Swiss stamps I've compared. The non-genuine stamp just looks bad. A perfect, well-centered early Japanese stamp with a perfect corner cancellation is clearly not likely to be genuine.

Other stamps were genuinely forged to deceive people. These are often better made, though certainly not always. Sometimes they were made by actual engravers or other people who knew what they're doing and decided to make money illegally. Crooks, in other words. These stamps might never have been intended to be sold to collectors as clear fakes, but designed to deceive collectors with money out of a lot of it. These stamps are less likely to look perfect or be neat and tidy, but to look, well, real. So they might be a little off center, have a strong cancel, and be a little rougher looking -- not like play money at all, but like a genuine rare old stamp.

Some of these forged stamps get mixed into the same pool of stamps with the "copies for collectors" stamps that were not marked as "copies" along with all the genuine stamps, and it becomes a big mess. When I find a stamp that is clearly not genuine, I always mark it on the back as a "copy" or "fake" or, if I'm in a good mood and there's enough space, as a "reproduction". Some sellers of copies do mark the back with the word "faux" (false), but I wonder if that's because they think the average person doesn't know that that French word means?

My guess is your stamps were the former kind of "stamps" designed to accommodate average collectors who could never afford the real stamps, but never marked as "copy" or "reproduction". They look too good to me. They're very neat and tidy, well centered, have overly perfect cancels, and just don't seem like old stamps. Comparing them to known real stamps, or looking carefully at details in a catalog, will confirm what they are, but that's my opinion, and yes it would be nice for you if I'm wrong. Check the catalogs if you can. I was looking at a nice Denmark collection the other day where the seller wrote that he assumed "all" the early stamps, at least a dozen of them, were not real, but copies.
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Edited by DrewM - 10/08/2020 12:17 am
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Posted 10/08/2020   4:37 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ehall928 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you. I think I may start a binder of shame. I'd like to sell such items but feel so angry about what forgeries do to the hobby that it galls me to sell them. On the other hand, detecting forgeries expands my knowledge of worldwide stamps when for most of my life I have restricted my interests to US.

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Canada
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Posted 10/08/2020   8:27 pm  Show Profile Check gmot's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gmot to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I was looking at Bergedorf stamps a couple days ago and most of the listings online I saw were the reprints - and the large majority undisclosed as such. Put it down to ignorance on part of the seller, lack of even the most cursory investigation of what you're selling (Scott has a big note on how to identify Bergedorf reprints, so you don't even need specialist literature), or attempt to deceive the unwary.

I understand not being sure about complex items requiring specialist sources when one is a general WW seller, but in this case it's pretty sloppy or dishonest. Perhaps the difference in CV from $160 to $5 is too tempting for some (although kudos to the honest sellers who did identify their sets as reprints).
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