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Letter In German From 1932 And Air Mail

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Valued Member
Germany
221 Posts
Posted 12/09/2020   06:54 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
bookbndrbob,

From what I can see in this Letter the Kurrentschrift is used for official correspondence.
The letter that was posted is a grant of permission to practice the trade of "Schneider", which would be the male version of a seamstress.
Expect my Update by tonight, or tomorrow. The decyphering is mostly done, Im just having trouble with several words, but the meaning can already be gleaned from it.

@PostmasterGS:
The Script is actually fascinating. What I found bewildering that an "e" looks like an "n" in the script. And an uppercase "B" looks like an upper case "L". There are very fine nuances that separate them, which would be obvious to a trained eye. Readability also depends on the author of the script, and how well defined he wrote those nuances.
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Pillar Of The Community
United States
7239 Posts
Posted 12/09/2020   12:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bookbndrbob to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks LordinVader!
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Valued Member
Germany
221 Posts
Posted 12/09/2020   4:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
So I finally was able to decypher almost the entire text. Just 2 words elude me, but the meaning is obvious.

It is a grant of permission, kind of like a "royal charter", to a tailor, granting him permission to practice his trade.

The decyphered text as it is:



The rough translation of the text is as follows:

"... to the report of the royal office…. Of the 7. d. M. The resident and Tailor Johann Friedrich Dettmer of Hornbostel, the … sought after …. For the practice of the tailor trade in the village of Hornbostel, however only until further disposition and under the condition that he would practice the trade alongside budding journeymen and apprentices, and any other such helpers, and only for rural residents, is granted and the royal office…. to pay attention to it and to let pay attention, that the above named follows the condition set out herein.
Lüneburg the 20. Septbr. 1835
Royal …..
To
The Office….. Winsen a. d. Aller
Copy
For the tailor Johann Friedrich Dettmer zu Hornbostel"

The words im missing is the "Amts...." that comes after the "Königliche". "Amt" means office, such as a political office. So it must be a specific royal office.

Im also missing the second word on the 4th line, which, in context, could be something akin to "permission", even though I cannot decipher the german word.
And finally, im missing the 7th word on the second to last line. In context it could mean something like "applicant".

This was actually quite interesting to me as well, it felt like putting together a puzzle!

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United States
2941 Posts
Posted 12/09/2020   5:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
I believe the "Amt" word is Amtsvoigtei.

You can see a reference to that office in the title of this chapter from the 1858 book, Topographisch-historische Beschreibungen der Städte, Aemter und adelichen Gerichte im Fürstenthum Lüneburg (Topographical-historical descriptions of the cities, offices and aristocratic courts in the Principality of Lüneburg).
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Edited by PostmasterGS - 12/09/2020 5:20 pm
Valued Member
Germany
221 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   03:08 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes that fits. I thought of Amtsvogtei before, because thats how the words sounds in german today. Did not know about that older version.
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United States
2941 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   03:42 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PostmasterGS to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, the extra 'i' caused a lot of problems with my search.
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Presenting the GermanStamps.net Collection - Germany, Colonies, & Occupied Territories, 1872-1945
Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   03:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Would this be similar to the British "By Appointment" ?

Royal Warrant of Appointment
United Kingdom
Royal Warrants of Appointment have been issued since the 15th century to those who supply goods or services to a royal court or certain royal personages. The warrant enables the supplier to advertise the fact that they supply to the royal family, thereby lending prestige to the brand and/or supplier. In the United Kingdom, grants are currently made by the three most senior members of the British royal family to companies or tradespeople who supply goods and services to individuals in the family. Suppliers continue to charge for their goods and services – a warrant does not imply that they provide goods and services free of charge. The warrant is typically advertised on billboards or company hoardings in British English, letter-heads and products by displaying the coat of arms or the heraldic badge of the royal personage as appropriate. Underneath the coat of arms will usually appear the phrase "By Appointment to..."Wikipedia
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Bedrock Of The Community
Australia
38679 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   04:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add rod222 to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
https://www.myheritage.com/names/ilse_dettmer
Ilse Maria Dettmer (born Froböse), 1763 - 1806
Ilse Maria Dettmer (born Froböse) was born on month day 1763, at birth place, to Hinrich Johann Froböse and Margaretha Dorothea Elisabeth Froböse (born Schilli).
Ilse had 4 siblings: Johann Andreas Froböse and 3 other siblings.
Ilse married Johann Andreas Dettmer on month day 1798, at age 35 at marriage place.
Johann was born on November 18 1754, in Bockenem Krs. Hildesheim.
They had 2 children: Johann Heinrich Andreas Dettmer and one other child.
Ilse passed away on month day 1806, at age 43 at death place.
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Edited by rod222 - 12/10/2020 04:02 am
Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
623 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   04:12 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
LordInVader - This might help:

Auf den Bericht ...

... gesuchte Conzession ...

... dass der Conzessionist obiger ...

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Pillar Of The Community
United States
1430 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   04:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add erilaz to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, but with the antiquated spellings "Concession" and "Concessionist"; see the word "zu" for examples of "z" in the text.

I think that the word after "Königliche" might be "Landdvogtey", i.e. Landvogtei = governorship, jurisdiction of a governor. But what I'm positing as a "g" really looks more like an "s" (compare examples of "st" elsewhere in the document).
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Valued Member
Germany
221 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   11:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LordInVader to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
@rod222
I dont think that this is "by Appointment".
I think it is simply a license to practice a trade in a village.
As far as I know, and the text you supplied also states it, the "by Appointment" means that the person and their trade supplied the royal court with services or products.
That is not the case in this letter.

Awesome research on the Ancestry!

@florian
Your suggestion is actually GENIUS! I see the A now!
Check out the upper case A on this Alphabet:
http://www.kurrentschrift.net/index.php?s=alphabet

Being the very first letter of the letter, it is overly stylized, and the rest of the text fits it as well.
"Auf" also makes sense contextually.
Regarding the term "Conzession", it is certainly possible, because it would fit perfectly into the context.
Found this definition here: https://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexi...p/Conzession
"Conzession is an old term for the granting of a right name or a mine."

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Learn More...
United States
1273 Posts
Posted 12/10/2020   9:47 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Al E. Gator to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank all of you for the input regarding this document. I've had it for a while; thought it to be some sort of a legal document but hadn't a clue what it stated.
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Pillar Of The Community
Czech Republic
623 Posts
Posted 12/16/2020   06:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add florian to your friends list  Get a Link to this Reply
LordInVader - Just consider the number of varieties of upper case forms of each letter of the alphabet in http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese/Kanzlei2.htm . Besides, there is no end to various decorative flourishes people once used with upper case forms.

The respective lower case letter forms: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Lese/Kanzlei1.htm

Compare: standard cursive script for primary schools: http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Les...terlin18.htm

---------------------

Beware also of hardly legible traps in Latin script such as https://goscf.com/t/69768&whichpage=3#655148

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Obsolete spellings such as Concession and Conzession = Konzession. Just Google https://www.duden.de/suchen/dudenonline/Konzession for
1. Vorübergehende behördliche Genehmigung zur Ausübung ... 2. Konzession =
1. Temporary regulatory approval to exercise ... 2. License

--------------------

To decipher
An die Königliche .. Landd....
die Amtsvoigtey Winsen a. d. Aller

I had to Google https://www.kreuzwort-raetsel.net/l...chen#suchbox where I found Landdrost = mittelalterlicher hoher Beamter = medieval high official while https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Landdrost specified : Gebrauch: 18./19. Jahrhundert = used in the 18th - 19th Centuries.

----------------------

Then I Googled Landdrostey and found the word (misspelt with one -d- missing) in https://www.tischlerei-brammer.de/D...men/desktop/ in a passage ... Urkundlich wurde dem Einwohner Johann Heinrich Brammer am 20. November 1826 von der Königlichen Land/d/rostey gestattet, das Tischlerhandwerk zu betreiben. ...
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Edited by florian - 12/16/2020 07:39 am
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