What Is Penetrated Perf?

I couldn't find it in the glossary.

I had never heard of a penetrated perforation. So, I googled it. There was a thread on it on another stampboard, where many very experienced collectors had not heard of it.

If you have this type of question, help us to help you and provide a picture or reference to what you refer to. Below is a possible answer to your inquiry. But I cannot tell as you did not say where you found this term.

Someone on another stampboard asked the question in 2015. When members asked him for a reference. The OP in that thread went Firefox1492 on members.

In the end, some member posted a screenshot of a Stampworld.com listing of Germany's 1923 hyperinflation overprints. Two of the 2 million on 200 Mark (rose and brown-red) and 2 million on 5 thousand Mark (rose) are listed with the description "(Penetrated Perf.)." The suggestion there was that those are rouletted perforation. I.e., it is no term, just someone at Stampworld that had no knowledge of philatelic terms and used some strange translation into English.

There are a number of sets in the 1923 listings that have varieties with this remark. Annoyingly, in German, Dutch, French and English versions, the descriptions are the same (in English).

Edit 2 Mark should have been 200 Mark

Rob Roy,
It would be helpful to know the full context of where you found the term.
Please supply us a reference. Otherwise, you have pulled a term out of its context and ask us to put it back in.
Thank you.

Maybe this thread from last May?
https://goscf.com/t/72799
Still does not answer the question.

The 2 million on 200 Mark (I, incorrectly wrote 2 Mark, above) stamp in that threat is one of the stamps that Stampworld lists as "penetrated perf." Their number 307Aa. They list a "normal" one, and one with this remark. A collector of "Deutsches Reich" may tell if this stamp is listed by Michel with different perforation types, probably comb and rouletted. The latter, likely, what Stampworld calls "penetrated perf."

As best as I can tell, the "penetrated perf" listings match those varieties of the German inflation issues that are available with rouletted perfs and no others.

Thank you, I understand the German separation methods, however, I specifically asked Rob Roy to supply the reference in the context that he has found.

Thanks Postmaster,
I thought the term to be a misunderstanding at best.
Your explanation makes complete sense, ie a variety of an expected standard.

One never stops learning here.

Thinking about it, the corollary follows, that a roulette is considered a perforation
Not sure I like that.
The German roulettes are die cuts, no?

Rod,

They're commonly referred to in that manner, at least in English, but it really is a misnomer. FWIW, Michel doesn't consider them perforations. And I believe they are die cut,

I have collected for more than 40 years. This was the first time I heard of penetrated perforations. Indeed, sometimes, I come across rouletted in conjunction with perforations.

SG speaks of separations of which rouletting is one type, perforating is another. Die-cutting tends to be different from rouletting. The former intends to cut a shape. Rouletting tends to refer to applying interrupted cuts that do not separate the stamps but allow for easy separation. A type of cutting wheel was used, hence the French denomination of roulette. Modern self-adhesive Machin sheets have both: the backing paper is rouletted to allow for single or multiple stamps to easily be separated from the sheets. Die-cutting is applied to the stamps to give them an appearance of perforation. This also allows for the matrix - the paper between stamps - to be removed before putting them on sale.

Below is a British self-adhesive booklet. The rouletting appears in the centre for facilitating folding. The stamps have die-cut simulated perforations. The special stamps (flags and ensigns) have the matrix around the stamps intact. The four Machins have the surrounding matrix removed.

I have been collecting over 60 years, and have never heard of the phrase "penetrated perf" before.

I would guess that it is a proprietary Stampworld term.
Don

It is not a standard philatelic term. It is nonsense. It needs to be buried at sea. There are already many terms that inexperienced collectors "find" on the interweb that are rubbish and create a lot of confusion.

Merry Christmas Plus One

Keeping it in context, ie Germany
the inflation rouletting was "Serpentine or Saw Tooth roulette"
That had to be die cut, by its very nature.
(Unless the saw tooth had tiny wheels, which I doubt)
Happy to be corrected.

All sorted,
Not die cut, as NSK suggested wheels. (Disks)

I was surprised there appears no info how the Germans did carry out their saw toothed roulettes.

From Linn's
https://www.linns.com/insights/stam...ie-cuts.html

Rouletting is another type of separation. Experimental rouletted stamps actually preceded stamps with perforations, but rouletting has been used much less frequently than perforating.

In rouletting, machines with sharp notched bars or toothed disks cut slits in the paper between the stamps. Rouletting differs from perforating in that perforating actually removes small bits of paper (the perforation holes) from between the stamps, while rouletting cuts the paper between stamps at intermittent intervals without actually removing any of it.

A Heligoland 1-schilling rose and deep green Queen Victoria stamp (Scott 2) with rouletted separations is shown in Figure 7.

Straightline rouletting is the norm, but different types of roulettes can be made by setting the rouletting bars or disks in different patterns.

Serpentine rouletting is made by a machine with curved cutting blades faced in alternating opposition so that the undulating roulette pattern resembles a slithering snake. A Finnish 10-pennia black on buff paper Coat of Arms stamp with serpentine roulettes is shown in Figure 8. The stamp has a tooth missing.

In recent years, the proliferation of U.S. self-adhesive stamps has essentially replaced the old standby perforations with a new type of separation called die cutting.

Die cutting is similar to rouletting in that the paper between stamp designs is cut by dies. It differs from rouletting in that rouletting leaves gaps between the cuts where the stamps are still attached to each other. Die cutting almost always makes continuous cuts all the way around the stamp designs so that the stamps of a pane are no longer attached to each other.

Thank you all.
Indeed, it's stampworld's fault I asked this question. Someone here asked about the value of german hyperinflation stamps, I went to Stamford and ran into that term.
So, you suggest that the right term is rouletting. I didn't know it had such a long history, thought it started with the self-adhesive stamps.
So one term solved, another one created: What is Firefox1492? Some explanation or response method?

Rob Roy, Thank you for sharing the source for this phrase and what issue they applied it to. Now we can answer your question without guessing.