Scott #11 Advice On Type I V Type II And Dull Red V Orange Brown

New here. Having problems with photo uploads so apologies in advance. Just got back into collecting after buying a collection online. Never had anything older than 1890s Franklins. Now I have at least 20 older than that and I'm THRILLED even though I'm learning they're common as dirt but they're so interesting. I've researched on Stampsmarter.org, Swedishtiger and a well illustrated article by Don Getzen of hamiltonphilatelic.org but I'm still not clear on the difference between Scott #11 Type I and Type II and Dull Red v Orange Brown. Suggestions? Have I correctly labeled these cigar box warriors?

Hello, Scott, and welcome to the forum. I'll jump in here, although there are many members of this forum with considerably more expertise than I on the 3-cent 1851 stamps.

The difference between Scott #10/11 and #10A/11A, resp., is the presence (10A/11A), vs. absence (10/11) of inner frame lines. Of the two stamps you have pictured, the one with the squiggly manuscript cancel is clearly 11A, with inner frame lines (Type II). These are readily evident when present (see photo). The other stamp to my eye anyway doesn't appear to have inner frame lines, so looks to me like #11 (Type I).

The difference between Orange Brown stamps (#10/10A) and Dull Red (plus many other shades) stamps (#11/11A) is really more complex than simple color terminology. Colors can vary according to printing batch and, over the course of 170 years, exposure to environmental factors. One person's Orange Brown may be another person's Brown Orange. The difference between #10/10A and #11/11A is based on an actual and deliberately introduced difference in the chemical composition of the printing inks. The ink used for the early stamps (#10/10A) proved to be corrosive to the plates (due to iron content, if I recall correctly). The change in printing inks resulted in stamps that were less orange and more red in color. Although this distinction with some experience can be discerned with the naked eye in many cases, the only truly reliable way to identify #10/10A vs #11/11A is to determine what plate a given stamp came from. If you look in the Scott's US Specialized Catalog you'll see that #10/10A were produced only from certain plates, none of which also produced #11/11A. Neither of the stamps you have pictured here shows evidence of being Orange Brown, in my view.

I invite corrections/additions from the true 3-Cent experts.

Thank you for the clarifications.The arrows confirmed what I was looking at. I look forward to learning more from this group.

Hi ScottZ --

Welcome to the forum -- and I will say that having collected and specialized in the 1851 3-cent issue for many years -- that dudley did a very nice job of explaining and summarizing the differences in how to classify the stamp by Scott #.

You made reference in your original post to a presentation by Don Getzin -- which I had not seen before -- but just took a look now -- and I think Don did a great job of illustrating the differences as well. Link to Don's presentation for others who may not have seen it is here:

http://hamiltonphilatelic.org/prese...mpressed.pdf

There are other resources you can look at as well, including -- as dudley mentioned -- the Scott US Specialized catalogue.

Also, there is an "Easy ID" article for the 3c 1851 stamp on the StampSmarter website -- link is here:

https://stampsmarter.org/features/S...Plating.html

In any event, after all the dust settles and all the smoke clears -- the definition of the various Scott numbers for the 3-cent imperforate issue of 1851 boils down to two factors --

-- First -- the plate from which the stamp was printed

-- Second -- the presence -- or absence -- of recut inner lines.

Note that the color of the stamp is NOT a factor in determining the Scott catalog number.

Consequently, as dudley noted, the only 100% sure way to determine the Scott catalog number is to plate the stamp -- or at least be able to determine the plate from which the stamp was printed.

If you have not yet checked out StampPlating.com -- there is a tab that summarizes how to ID the various plates -- and a ton of other information about the stamp as well. Link is here:

http://stampplating.com/identify-plates

As an aside -- The plates that printed the #10 and 10A stamps were in use for only a very short time -- and the number of stamps printed from these plates pales in comparison to the plates that printed the #11 and #11A stamps -- which, generally speaking, drives the significant difference in Scott catalog value.

Again -- welcome to the forum.

Regards // ioagoa

Super information and I'm sure the plating resources will be helpful in addressing that stack of Green Franklin's on my desk.
Thanks for the encouragement.