Fake Cancels Added To Highly-Graded Stamps

Hi all,

I am very sorry my post has created so much trouble. My friend's intent was simply to create awareness and perhaps some discussion for the benefit of those who collect modern graded stamps (my friend is a small-time collector of modern US stamps and covers, and I doubt he is related to the original poster in the other forum(s))

It has been an educational thread. I was not aware that this went on.

This seems like a real issue. I don't pay close attention to modern U.S., and I don't really believe in grading, but I also don't want to see "innocents" getting hosed. This seems like an appropriate topic for discussion?

Sorry, but so far all I see is a accusation of a fake cancel with no actual proof of:
Who made it?
When was it made?
How was it made?
Is it provable beyond doubt it was not done in a post office with actual postal equipment?
Has the ink chemistry of the cancel been analyzed against other specimens?
Were the two submissions made by the same person?
The fact that a stamp valid for postage was submitted before/after a cancel was applied in itself is not proof of fakery.
So far, there is not enough hard evidence presented to "convict".

...which is why it's a valid topic for discussion?

ETA: Apparently, some people say that they have that evidence? I don't, so I don't know...

I have to think that the PSE used their VSC 6000 to determine that the cancel was not right.

Fine. Suppose you show a cover from 2018 which has this type of wavy line machine cancel. With this style and with this spacing. Not sprayed on. Frankly, the color and texture of this "cancel" makes it suspect from the start.

Ehh? I thought the PF had a VSC but PSE didn't... or was that meant in jest? Can't tell for certain sans emoji.

Here is a thread on machines recently in use with steel die wavy lines:
https://goscf.com/t/72761
Granted, most of these machines had generally been withdrawn by this time, but that meant they were sold for scrap metal and some have ended up in private hands. There are several members of the Machine Cancel Society who own retired cancelling machines of various makes and models. As I noted earlier, there are at least two vintage machine listed for sale currently on ebay.

Add: I got this Feb 2, 2023 steel-die machine from Portland, OR a few weeks ago.


True, the wavy lines of various machines have different numbers of waves and different pitches. The 7 lines on stamp in the original post could be from an International "Flier" or a Universal Model G machine. Careful measurement would be required, but regardless, these machine still exist and have been used post-2000.

Although the cancel is somewhat generic - unidentifiable as to city/date/etc - the certs PROVE that it was applied after 2011. And, sure, you can put a mint stamp on a letter and mail it, whether it is a current stamp or 100 year old stamp. In my mind, the cancel is non-contemporaneous, and so the stamp as a cancelled stamp has very little value to me, and likely many other collectors that would be aware of the situation. The reason for doing this is anyone's guess. I suspect the person that did this (I am ASSUMING the mint stamp was used on purpose by a collector/dealer - or even doctored with an unidentifiable cancel) did it assuming that a high grade used example may be worth more than a high grade mint example. Or, that it was going to be. Perhaps the assumption was that the populations were going to be heavy on the mint side and light on the used side.

I would suspect (well, in my head I will say 'believe') it was done to deceive. Exactly why is not clear - all conjecture on the reasoning. In the end, I would have near-zero interest because the use is non-contemporary by about 50 years. I wouldn't be proud to have it in my collection, knowing I would have to be explaining/defending the various shortcomings being raised in this thread.

Every example shown in the other thread has significant differences from the stamp which began this thread, from the thickness of the lines to the depth of the curves. The curves are much shallower on EVERY example on the other thread. The texture is different on all of them as well. And what are the odds of someone lucking out like this to find a cancel barely being used any more which might be thought of as "in the period"??? It's a fake, and there are many other examples which look similar to this one. Some certs: 577786, 584753, 581099, 579946, 578603, 569621, 454613, 435386.
Also a counterfeit slogan cancel, just for fun....525790 Lots of counterfeit double ovals as well, of course.

Mootermutt,
I agree the cancel was applied well after the stamp was issued, but as a hypothetical,
let's say the first cert never existed, only the second one for a cancelled stamp.
What then?

Revcollector,
You cannot refute the FACT that vintage canceling machines do exist in collector hands. And the fact that the cited threads do not contain an example exactly matching the original stamp is not proof that the particular make/model in not in use somewhere.

But I'm done beating my head against the wall here. To make any real progress, the original poster needs to provide the "proof" by supplying additional factual background and scientific information.

I am 99% certain that I know at least 4 of the people who looked at it for the PF, and the equipment that was used to examine it. I am satisfied that they made the correct assessment. Their combined 200 years of experience is enough for me.

So what are these high grade used stamps selling for? I'm not seeing any values in SMQ. I have a grade 98 signed RW19 US federal duck stamp which I've never seen a value for. It's the only one at this grade and none higher, next best is a grade 90.

John, serious question.




I don't follow this. Can you help me process why this is relevant?