Fake Cancels Added To Highly-Graded Stamps

Hi all,

I am posting this on behalf of a friend, to create awareness of fake cancels being added to highly-graded stamps. The stamps shown in the 2 PSE certificates below are clearly the same stamp, but a fake wavy cancel seems to have been added to the stamp sometime between 2011 and 2018. It could be that 'Used' is worth much more than 'Mint'. Good to be aware that such fraudulent activities exist (not surprising), though I thought PSE would have caught this.

What if the owner used it for postage and mailed it back to themselves? It's an unlikely scenario, but possible.

I agree it is the same stamp, however, several thoughts come to mind in defense of this item:
There is nothing to stop one from using a mint stamp, whether certified or not.
Cancelling machines with this wavy-line killer have been in use for more than a century.
Yes, this stamp was used quite late, but the cancel is not necessarily fake or privately applied.
Many of us regularly use stamps from the 1950s and earlier.
There would be little reason for any certifying body to check their records of mint stamps when a used example is submitted.

Does your friend have proof that the cancel was applied privately or fraudently, rather than passing through the mail?
(Add: also keep in mind there are quite a few vintage canceling machines in private hands, including at least two currently for sale on ebay.)

Opinion:
I think entirely possible,
the top right and bottom left corner paper fragments have survived exceedingly
accurate.

C58 CV c50c mint or used?

PSE does not even list a value for a used C58 grade 98... mnh is $60. There's only a population of 1 for used and none higher, so I suppose there's that. Nobody is getting rich off this one, so not sure if it's an act of deception.

Your friend covered this already here (and in other forums). I am unclear of the purpose of push for publishing this long after the fact. Yes, examples are these are still floating around the marketplace. From my chair, it appears that someone has an agenda beyond 'education'.
https://forums.delphiforums.com/sta...?msg=57072.1
Don

How many wavy line cancels from 2018 have you seen? What are the odds of the stamp actually getting canceled by one instead of the spray cancels that are much more popular now? There are spray wavy line cancels, but they look nothing like the cancels from the period when this stamp was being used originally. It would not be difficult for an expert to tell the difference.

There has been discussion on the " ebay Or Hipstamp fraudulent U.S. stamps" page on Facebook about these.

Ugh. The thread here goes to Delphi and then that thread takes you to Stampboards, and once again the tone of "The Sheriff" makes my trigger finger twitch. I hadn't read his drivel in nearly long enough; nothing but his typical incessant "stupid Americans" bigotry.

Without going back and rereading every word in every thread, why does PSE delete a cert outright rather than making it so that the search instead comes up with something akin to "This certificate has been withdrawn for reasons XXXXX and YYYY" or "This item in this certificate has been resubmitted for expertization. This certificate is withdrawn and is replaced by cert #NNNNNNNN".

The bigger question is why was just the original cert withdrawn? Shouldn't the new cert also be withdrawn or at least flagged as fraudulent?

The way this is being handled by PSE is IMO yet another disservice to the collecting community.

What am I missing here?

None of the certification groups handle cert revisions in their databases. This is a MAJOR oversight and would easily give them the ability to deal with things just like this. I get the feeling that they do not want to admit that that all certs have a shelf life. As this situation clearly demonstrates, the knowledgebase expands over time, an opinion of a stamp today can easily become obsolete tomorrow if new information surfaces.

Without supporting revisions of an existing cert in the DB, what are the options when it happens? Without a revision field, they basically have two choices; remove the obsolete cert or leave it and dream up some costly work-around for a lack of a revision field. A work-around would then either be applied from today forward (leaving people to get mad about existing, older cert) or require them to go back and update hundreds of old certs?
Don

Can someone give me a twenty-word TL;DR? Was this fraud or stupidity, or some combination of both?

The 'friend' who asked Prexie apparently knows who the person who did this years ago but is not willing to name them.

All the cert organizations have known about these faked cancels for a number of years so none of this is new.

It may be that the desire is to blacken the eye of PSE since they are the only certs being shown as examples but there are other organizations which have also removed old, incorrect certs from their respective databases. And we all know that many certs are 'conveniently lost' when they are presented for sale.

This leaves me wondering the point of pushing this topic in every philatelic forum.
Don

Indeed, a real embarrassment.
You guys are not the only ones to cop it.

A shame really, because there are some knowledgeable collectors there.

( Last time I looked, which was years ago)

@Prexie3C

Well, it is two different Certificate Nr. guess nothing is wrong with that part and the stamps also looks quiet good and similar.

There could be numerous reason why the stamp have been used and then recertificatede.

Posting to clear up some misconceptions and unsupported speculation on this topic. Starting from the first post in the thread. I have not asked anyone to post on my behalf so in this post I may not be the "friend" referenced. In fact, as of now, I do not know the identity of Prexie3c. .

Moving on...Since I am the original poster of several of these fakes on other platforms I want to address unsupported speculation by 51Studebaker concerning these fakes.

51Studebaker writes: ]"Your friend covered this already here (and in other forums). I am unclear of the purpose of push for publishing this long after the fact. Yes, examples are these are still floating around the marketplace. From my chair, it appears that someone has an agenda beyond 'education'. " This is pure speculation. I have not claimed any other reason other than informing the collecting public of the fakes. The fakes speak for themselves and collectors can compare the specifics of this cancel to their holdings. To blithely say these fakes are still in the marketplace proves the value of my exposing them. Real people have lost real money as a result of this fakery.

In a later post 51Studebaker writes: "All the cert organizations have known about these faked cancels for a number of years so none of this is new. It may be that the desire is to blacken the eye of PSE since they are the only certs being shown as examples but there are other organizations which have also removed old, incorrect certs from their respective databases. And we all know that many certs are 'conveniently lost' when they are presented for sale.

This leaves me wondering the point of pushing this topic in every philatelic forum."

Again purely speculative. For the record these are the fakes that I have seen with this particular cancel. Of course other cert issuers have been fooled in the past and will be in the future. What evidence does 5Studebaker have that these particular fakes are known by all cert organizations for a number of years. How many years specificaly? which organizations? prove your statement. I can tell you that I informed PSE of the existence of these fakes on May 22, 2020. I have all the emails on this matter between me and them. What do you have?

Regarding the black eye speculation; please confine your comments to supported facts, it makes for more compelling reading. If I had knowledge of any other cert organization missing the fact that a faker was mass producing fake cancels I would bring that to light too. PSE just happens to be the issuer of these certs. Do you know of certs issued by other cert issuers with this exact cancel? Show them. As for the identity of the person who applied the ink. PSE knows that and since they produced the certs I think it appropriate that they reveal the identity, not me. Jerry.

First of all, I am allowed my own opinions just as everyone else is. Coming in here and attacking me for those opinion is lame and a poor way to come together (read the email I sent you before you wrote above) in improving a situation which can use some improvement.
Since you have decided to have an adversarial relationship, I am not going to bother to waste my time with you anymore.
Don