Watermarks In Early Post Cards?

It was suggested by another collector here that this forum is the one to inquire about watermarks on early 1870's post cards. Forgive me if it is not, but I have many 1873, 74 and up such as this example. Almost all the early 1870's cards have watermarks shown under a bright light, but I have no idea what is desirable or not so much...

Information on postal cards including watermarks, paper varieties, etc. is provided in the UPSS postal card catalog which is available from www.upss.org in print or pdf formats.

UX1 is the large watermark, UX3 is the small watermark as is UX4. Premiums for inverted, reverse and inverted & reversed watermarks as well as missing watermarks (expert certificate required) and for stitch watermarks. Plate varieties may also command a premium.

A BIG THANKYOU jobi01! I just posted a call for help on this matter in another thread. You just answered that call! I'll be looking at what I have to see what cards fit the premium category.

I do know, so far, that many of the cards are the large watermark, some inverted, not sure about inverted (up-side down?) Many small watermarks, not sure about missing ones. Also, not sure about "stitch or "plate" varieties. Can you elaborate?

Also, what is the best form of light to illuminate these marks?

@bigd1101,

Not long after you joined, you got very good help from our mod Don, aka 51studebaker. You will find a link to his post here: https://goscf.com/t/85702#794308

In his post, he gave a link to the Stamp Smarter database.
https://stampsmarter.org/1847usa/SSPostCards.html

Use the drop down box and for each card, you get a picture of front and back. Below it is a description that includes the watermark. E.g., it appears UX1 has a watermark 'Large USPOD.' (I guess it shows 'USPOD' in large letters?)

If I remember correctly, someone posted about watermark liquid and was told not to use it, but use a strong light from the back. I cannot find that thread or post.

NSK....I did look at that reference and the ebay sold results. Looks like mint unused cards bring more money. Would a black light work?

On a slightly different subject. While researching watermarks, I came across an old post where John Becker was discussing plate flaws in printing the first postcards. Yet again another thing to look for? Is that what jobi01 is talking about in plate varieties? It would be cool if I had some of the first plate printed cards. If so, what to look for?

I would not use a black light from the back of a postcard as you will look straight into it.

https://goscf.com/t/85682
I use a strong LED flashlight

Don

While I agree that the speciaiized literature on UX1 and UX3 goes into considerale detail about the watermark orientations and the 72 subject positions and progressive plate flaws (the UPSS postal card catalog and Fricke's UX!/UX3 plating book, now recently republished), a large number of general collectors and the mom-n-pop ebay sellers will stop at the level of detail of the Scott Specialized catalog which mentions that watermark orientations exist, but does not value the 4 positions individually, nor go into the plate flaws. The reality of the marketplace is that UX1 and UX3 are commonly sold without any specific watermark orientation or plating data. Knowledgeable advanced collectors seeking the various varieties can find them with a bit of effort for minimal premium, if any. They are commonly found in $1 boxes at shows with some patience.

Bottom line, you will likely find the reasonable level-of-effort is to ID your cards between UX1 and UX3, provide a good scan, and let the postal history of the cancel and the social history of the message drive the sale price. Your Nebraska City example here is such a case. In other words, keep it simple - or at least fairly simple.

So far I've found quite a few plate flaws. I'll close-up scan some to let you all verify them. Looking through these cards one can clearly and with the help of my trusty magnifying glass, see where small chunks of the plate are missing, scratched, or weak. The same flaws match, with different cards, so it's not from wear on the card surface. Really cool actually.

The watermark issue will take some serious work in culling out special examples......

And on the plate issue....there had to be a "first run" in 1873, and why I asked if there is any way to tell cards from that run?

The simple answer is that UX1 cards are from the first run.

Yes, there are 72 different cards on the plate. Quality control of the early cards was minimal beyond "getting the job done", and the plate was well-used, so each of the 72 positions is identifiable by its flaws. A few positions were repaired during use, but essentally all have the same quantity produced and only the major flaws (the big-hole and little-hole varieties) command any attention from general collectors. I have a notebook with a pocket for each subject position, but it is more of an academic exercise than for any value difference.

Add: Almost ALL of these have been obtained for $1 or less. I won't pay a premium when I can find them on my own.

John, can you please elaborate on "big hole" and "little hole"? I'm looking at your examples and fail to see what you are talking about....then again, these old peepers ain't what they used to be. :)

There are several plate positions which show a horizontal gash across the plate in this case damaging the left frame, the arcs, the word "Postal Card", into the lacy framework of the "stamp", and the right frame. This is from subject position 7:



The other "hole" positions show somewhat similar damage. Some of these poisitions were repaired during the use of the plate, so it is often possible to find before, damaged, and repaired states, but this is deep into the woods.

Subject position 45 detail of left frame showing damaged state (Quite a hole!) and repaired state:

I consider my wife a typical postal card collector. She assembled a complete collection of mint postal cards, one example of each major catalog number, and is missing only 2-3 of the really high value cards (which she knows she will never bother to look for). She does have a number of Die varieties but she only has them because they came along with other collection she purchased when assembling her collection. Her collection fills 3 Vario Binders. She is not even remotely interested in leaning about or collecting plate varieties, collecting watermark varieties, joining any specialized club, or even purchasing a specialize catalog. Postal cards attracted her enough to collect them, but she does not want to become a postal card student or historian.

I've been in the hobby since the 1970s and I can count on my hands the number of people that I have met that collect at the level of Bill Lehr (jobi01) or John. This is not to say that this is not a great area to collect, I am saying this to give you an idea about the market demand. The demand from casual postal card collectors like my wife is fairly low, demand for highly specialized postal card collectors is even lower. And as John noted, specialize postal card collectors often glean many varieties from dealer dollars boxes.

And like other philatelic areas of collecting, condition is very important. I would say that most casual postal card collector seek clean, unused cards without any advertising on back of card. They look for cards without any toning and with sharp corners on the cards.

I have to admit that I am a bit confused by your interest/motivation. At first it sounded like you were interested in just valuing the material you own. But it also appears that you want to learn and are diving deep into areas that are far beyond what a typical person does when in the 'ID and disposition' mode.
Don

Here are a few: Large hole and a slash in the D. Below that is a chunk out of the C. Next is large hole, slash in D. Below that the large hole is gone, but there is still a slash in the D. Last, is a small hole but the slash in the D is still there. Other cards show messed up P's in POSTAL, a faded P and O, just some messed up curved lines before the P, smaller chunk out of the C,

To Don: My wife collects flowers....lots of gardens. :) I'm the real collector. Don't be confused, as I'm a very inquisitive person, and I usually dive into just about everything I find new and educational. 31 years working for a university will do that. I'm also realistic, I have no visions of becoming rich off these cards, and I'd be happy not making any money, I don't need it. But since I started this journey, I've become more interested in it. I suppose this new knowledge will die with me, my kids and grandkids could care less, but hell, one is never too old to learn, and I've lived by that mantra my whole life. If and when I do sell, I want to know what I'm selling and the best way to do that is to educate oneself on the subject, it's really that simple. I do want to thank all here for their patience with me, as I can ask a lot of questions, maybe too many sometimes, but one has to try. And I also think that maybe, by asking so many questions, another hobbyist here might glean something from the answers. Hope this clears it up a bit, Don