Victoria - Catalogue Help Sought

My Gibbons for some reason does not price inverted watermarks.

Does anyone know if they are priced in more recent catalogues?

Mine is quite old, so perhaps this has been rectified.

I ask because I found this yesterday: 6d green QV Crown over double-lined A watermark (SG 423) with inverted watermark. My Gibbons does not list any watermark varieties for this stamp at all.

Also, it does not price 1d rose with sideways V over Crown watermark (SG 458a) in used condition. Does anyone know if this has changed?





Any help would be greatly appreciated!

If you have the SG Commonwealth & British Empire Stamps 1840-1970 catalogue there is a comment about this on the first page of Australia ie just before they start listing New South Wales.

In the 2022 edition they list 458a as £50 in used condition (same as their value for mint)

Thanks, zendo59!

I do recall reading the note you refer to in a borrowed Gibbons I no longer have access to; while I can't remember exactly what it says, I think it was to the effect that inverted watermarks are so common, they're not worth worrying about.

However, while inverted watermarks are indeed very common on many New South Wales issues, I do not feel that this is the case for Victorian stamps.

In the last couple of weeks, I have soaked over 2,000 1d rose QV Crown over Double-lined A off paper, but I haven't found a single one with inverted watermark.

I have also soaked a few hundred with V over Crown watermark, and have only found a very small proportion with inverted watermark. Probably a dozen all up.

My experience is that, apart from the printings that resulted in 50% upright watermarks and 50% inverted (mostly New South Wales?), inverted watermarks are very rare. It seems astonishing to me that Gibbons is not concerned with listing these very rare items when they list inverted watermarks for nearly every other British territory.

I believe there is a specialised australian states catalogue produced by Brusden-White in Australia.

This may hold the info you are interested in.

An enquiry on Angry Old Glen's site (stampboards) might confirm this but be careful how you phrase your question as he is a very ornery critter. 8-)

I'm probably still banned from the site you mention. I was booted off within 48 hours of registering.

Brusden White would certainly have something to say about this issue, but I do not think they can list inverted watermark varieties either, as to date I haven't seen any listings of this nature anywhere. But I'll certainly investigate the matter further and report back what I find.

Here's an example from the latest Phoenix auction (#2176).

It's SG 421 with inverted watermark. There's no listing for this in Gibbons and, apparently, none from Brusden White either (or surely they would give it).

Despite what seems to me to be a very reasonable price, it seems that it did not sell.

I would say that, until someone actually prices items like this, no one is going to buy them and that some of Australia's rarest stamps are going to go completely overlooked.

For all we know, this 4d stamp may be one of them.

I agree it is strange Gibbons do not list inverted, sideways etc watermarks for most locally produced stamps of the Australian states. Especially as Australian states have always been a popular area with many collectors for well over 100 years

Yet, as you mention, they do list them for almost all other colonies from that era.

They also list tiny flyspeck flaws,many not viewable by the naked eye, by the thousands with more added every year.

I wonder if part of the problem is the Gibbons note itself. It seems to have given rise to a general misapprehension that MOST States issues exist with watermark 50% upright and 50% inverted.

jimjamtwo -

I asked the group about a Victoria inverted watermark block of 6 in my collection, and answers I received were stated on this thread, linked below:

https://goscf.com/t/82944

Hope this helps you,

Linus

Linus, this may be true in the case of this particular stamp, but, by and large, it's not true of most Victorian stamps. Many if not most simply do not have inverted watermarks. This perception seems to be obstructing research into many Victorian issues.

In the later issues inverted watermarks abound in New South Wales stamps. They're probably 50/50 but watermarks in all four positions on diadems and the 2d DLR single line 2 Wmk are not uncommon.

Watermark Crown over Double lined A was first introduced in late 1905. Therefore your stamp must be Federal not State issue.

2004 ACSC Federal Period for this issue states - " Paper: Watermark Crown over Double lined A thick paper gummed after printing, with equal proportions of upright and inverted watermarks".

There is no premium for inverted watermark listed for this issue.

Recommend anyone handling large quantities of any stamp issue should own up to date appropriate catalogues.

Regards
Frank

This is simply untrue.

As I said, I've soaked loads of 1d QV issues off paper and have not as yet found a single inverted Crown over Double-lined watermark.

In 2019, I acquired a large collection of Victorian cover fronts and cover fragments, 99% of which were sent to Griffiths Bros, a Melbourne coffee and tea company, from all over Victoria between August 1912 and February 1913. Nearly all, perhaps 90%, were franked with the 1d rose QV in question and the great majority of these have Crown over Double-lined watermark.

If 50/50 were true, obviously half of them would be inverted.

Please show me one of yours, then.

Since 50% of yours would have to be inverted, right?

NB: I'm not interested in acquiring catalogues that misinform their users.